Brothers and Sisters I hesitate to openly discuss this important topic because I know that there will be those who have not yet reached the spiritual maturity to fully understand what I am about to say. These individuals may be tempted to mock or make light of my words and I do not wish to cause any to sin in such a vile manner. Because of this I would ask that only mature members of the Church who have been through the temple read this faith promoting article. If you have not yet been through the temple please refrain from reading further until through your faithfulness you reach this honoured level.
I would like to start by quoting from the chapter entitled “Honesty” from the Gospel Principles manual that can be found on the official Church website at this link:
The manual reiterates that “We believe in being honest” and states that “Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation”.
We learn from this chapter that “the devil is a liar” and that “Those who choose to cheat and lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves”. It is important to understand that “Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.” We learn why people lie, “People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them. To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons.”
Speaking of those who will be in the Telestial Kingdom
But we must keep in mind the audience for which the book “Gospel Principles” was intended. As per lds.org “This course is for investigators, new members, members returning to activity, and others who need basic gospel instruction.”
As leaders in the Lord’s Kingdom upon the earth it is important that we learn to live by a higher law which unbeknown to the investigator or new member in fact justifies that in certain instances it is better to lie than to be truthful. This gospel precept is often known as “lying for the Lord” but I prefer to use the more scriptural based terminology of “giving milk before meat” or “not casting our pearls before swine”. After all we are at war with the adversary and must ever be watchful to not represent the Church or its teachings in such a manner that would turn away those who through correct initiation practices would become Christ’s strongest followers.
In a nutshell lying for the Lord consists of selectively giving unto the receiver the information that will help him view the Church, its history and its leaders in the most favourable light possible. True disciples of Christ know that this is to be done line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; never revealing all at once.
This is perfectly demonstrated by the prophet Joseph Smith in 1844 when he made the following statement:
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." (History of The Church 6:410-411)
At this time the Church was young and many in and out of the Church were unaware of Joseph’s polygamous practices. Joseph with his spiritual foresight could see the many problems that would arise if the general membership and neighbouring communities were to find out that he had several wives, so under the influence of the Lord he denied the charge saying “I can only find one.”
Now we all know that according to Church owned website familysearch.org Joseph was married to the following sisters when he made that statement in 1844 http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167
1827 - Emma Hale
1841 - Zina Diantha Huntington
1841 - Prescendia Lathrop Huntington
1842 - Mary Elizabeth Rollins
1842 - Eliza Roxey Snow
1842 - Sarah Ann Whitney
1842 - Martha McBride
1843 - Sarah Lawrence
1843 - Helen Mar Kimball
1843 - Lucy Walker
1843 - Rhoda Richards
1843 - Malissa Lott
1843 - Fanny Young
So the question that may come to mind amongst the less valiant is “Was Joseph Smith in fact an outright liar?” In answer to this concern we, the faithful, know that Joseph was a prophet of God and could not make such a bold statement without being guided by the spirit of truth. His statement which had the obvious intention of not casting pearls (polygamy being at that time a pearl of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ) before swine likely helped to silence the critics for a short time and allowed the truth of the gospel to roll forward and penetrate the hearts of the meek and lowly. Clearly brothers and sisters Joseph was not lying but was practicing the art of giving line upon line, precept upon precept, in order to further the work of the Lord upon the earth.
We see similar qualities in our current Church leadership. When Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland was interviewed for a show called "The Mormon Candidate" which was aired recently in the UK
As an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and defender of the faith Elder Holland’s response was so simple but profound it actually brought tears to my eyes. He simply replied “I have no idea”.
When pressed Holland
Our beloved Elder Holland is then asked if Mitt Romney would have sworn an oath saying that he would not pass on what happens in the temple, lest he slit his throat.
Once again Holland
When pushed by the crafty English reporter Holland
Here we have two examples in the first 1 minute and 17 seconds of the video where Holland represents the Church in the best possible light but then quickly retracts so as to not become a servant of Satan as per the Gospel Principles manual where it states that “Those who choose to lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves”
Brothers and Sisters it is my prayer that the Lord will bless each of you to understand the distinct spiritual difference between lying and lying for the Lord, and I leave these thoughts with you in the sacred and holy name of Jesus Christ, amen.
43 comments:
President, thank you for your timely guidance on this matter. I was concerned that the less valiant among us would be upset by Elder Holland's blatant lying, but know that he was lying FOR THE LORD, we can relax and know that there is no ark-steadying needed. This work will go forward boldly, nobly, and independent... of the whole truth if it might make the church look bad.
His lies are of a similar nature to hiding a Jewish family under the floorboards of your house, and not telling the SS when they show up at your door. It's the kind of lying that saves people and that nobody could possibly take issue with.
This brings to remembrance the moment when the beloved prophet Gordon B. Hinckley was interviewed by Time Magazine about the doctrine of man becoming a God.
Of course we know that Hinckley is an honest man and would never lie about something so well taught in the Church. The Prophet simply cannot lead the people astray!
"Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follett discourse by the Prophet.
"Hinckley: Yeah
"Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
"Hinckley: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it." (Time Magazine original transcript, Aug 4, 1997)
President Hinckley was simply giving milk before meat and being careful not to offend those who hearing the Prophet speak for the first time.
The truth will set you free. "Pres." set yourself free and leave your "calling". You have no business being in your position and posting this in public.
You are a BOZO. Look that up in the dictionary.
Oh Anonymous, thou bitter and vile apostate. You are clearly in the clutches of the adversary to disrespect our beloved Stake President so. May he sent holy leprechauns to give you an eternal wedgie in your temple garments.
Calling President Paternoster a BOZO may seem like an insult to some. However BOZO The Clown has had his temple work done by now, I'm sure, and is sitting on a whoopy cushioned throne at the right hand of God. We know God likes a good joke. Just look at the required under garments he makes his subjects to wear.
I applaud President Paternoster for tackling this sensitive subject. I look forward to lying for the Lord when the opportunity presents itself and proving myself worthy in these complicated last days.
Elder Hank E. Panky
Another inspired and holy post Prez. Paternoster! Thank you for setting me back on the straight and narrow path! Praise the Lord, Amen
Yours in Spiritual Wifery Love,
Sister Olsen-Veal
i am enthralled by the wise article and DEEP mystery laid bare before our eyes by this inspired leader Pres Paternoster.
Truly, god works in mysterious ways...the Q15 are so boring and this humble Stake President is so wise and imparts the truth so deliciously....delightful.
this article will be the basis for our next Family Home Evening, Quorum lesson and Sacrament talk....god be praised and thanked for Pres Paternoster...
Elder Won Dum Fuk
I created an account! Maybe this will help distinguish between the "real" anonymous and the "fake" anonymouses.
*** NOTE TO THE READER OF THIS BLOG ***
This is NOT a website sanctioned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Nor is "President Paternoster" a stake president within the Church. Rather, this site is farce, and [usually] not good farce, at that.
Most of the posts here are written by quasi-apostates who mock those who are sincerely striving, albeit imperfectly, to follow Jesus.
Caveat utilitor.
What are you talking about, of course he is real, and the first to really explain to me how lying can be a faith promoting experience, it has renewed my testimony and desire to follow the gospel so much that I have recovered my holey garments from the shed and wear them with a new purpose and understanding.
I'm a little concernrned at the amount of vitriol From the true believers makes me sad :-(
Why are they Annonamous ?
*** NOTE TO THE READER OF THIS BLOG ***
As President Paternoster's area authority, I can attest that he is indeed a stake president and one of the Lord's annointed servants. As the area authority with the sacred stewardship of overseeing the Emerald Isle, I fully endorse this website and the hard and sacred truths presented by our beloved president. Were every leader of the quality of President Paternoster, the gospel would truly expand throughout the world, but unfortunately the average leader is too concerned having sexual discussions with pre-teens.
It has also been revealed to me that Anonymous Gideon is under the influence of the Adversary and his dark angels, and I call him to repentance before he must face the eternal consequence of his lies.
To Anonymous Gideon.......
You have now thwarted me in my efforts to undermine your power and authority on this site.
Damn. What will I do now with all of my free time? I think I will reread each and every weekly blog that the good President Paternoster has revealed for our edification. Just thinking about it strengthens my testimony.
F. Ake Anonymouse
Re; comment by Suspicious Mind;
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that we believe men can become Gods. I think we can cut you some slack, as this has also been a misunderstanding of every prophet from Joseph Smith to Gordon B Hinkley.
The anonymous writers of the official Church website have now corrected this misunderstanding. (You may be forgiven for your ignorance of this latest revelation, as it was too sacred to discuss at General Conference.)
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C13
From the above "official" source for info on LDS beliefs;
Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?
Latter-day Saints believe that God wants us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17). Through following Christ's teachings, Latter-day Saints believe all people can become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).
Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?
NO!!! This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
Hinkley was not lying in the interview. Though he is one of the prophets who taught that we can become God's, most likely he had been given further light and knowledge prior to the interview you quote.
You must listen to the Ghost, Even the most Holy of Ghosts, which tells us with surety by giving us warm feelings inside, whether our leaders are lying, lying for the Lord, merely misguided, seriously deluded, completely senile, or just trying out new material to see how it goes over with the media.
Do not be led to and fro, blown about by every change in doctrine. Do not misplace your faith. God will never let the anonymous writers of Church websites lead you astray. Hold fast to that which is true today. Look not for what will be true tomorrow. Live in the present. If your desire to believe is strong enough, God will bless you with that which you sincerely desire.
Even so,
Amen
you forgot about jeffrey's other lie in general conference october 2009, about holding hyrum smith's copy of the book of mormon:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickleus/sets/72157623567278714/
When I was 12, I and 90% of the other young men learned how to lie for the Lord:
"No Bishop, I don't masturbate."
Another 5% didn't masturbate and were the really weird kids.
Another 5% never learned about lying for the Lord, and they were never allowed to go on temple trips.
This post has raised some very important points. I thank-you President for the disclosure at the beginning where you asked that "only mature members of the Church who have been through the temple read this faith promoting article." I never really understood the vast difference between those who have fully grasped the gospel and the covenants it offers until I myself went to the temple to receive my endowment. It's like the difference between someone who has never been a parent and one who is.
The Gospel doctrine class is sensitive to this distinction and is there to guide our brothers and sisters not push them. As a parent would you stick a 16 yrs old behind the wheel of a car with out any instruction or guidance, of course not to do so would put them at harms risk. The Gospel is no different. It needs to be taught by loving individuals who know how to teach one step at a time so that others can learn to stand on their own.
You are right President, we are at war with the adversary and it is doing it's best to tare down the church. It is our solemn duty to stand strong and follow the example of Elder Holland in bringing people off their misguided tangents.
I have been taught since I was a youth that there will be times when the government will not be in harmony with the path the Lord would have his people take. This happened in Joseph Smith's time and we need to be valiant and true to the faith if this time comes again.
I'm sorry if I come across as too serious but this is a matter not to be trifled with. If the time comes where I have to choose between my country and my God I know where I stand.
Dear Pres.
I think you forget also the example of the Lord himself "lying" to Joseph:
"Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter" (DC 130:14-15). It isn't so much lying, but telling a truth in a way that can be interpreted differently. That way, the person can honestly say they weren't lying... but that the person hearing didn't understand.
Most of the posts here are written by quasi-apostates who mock those who are sincerely striving, albeit imperfectly, to follow Jesus.
But if you guys' leaders lie for the Lord, how do we know you're not lying now? D: Or that God didn't want him to lie and say he's a stake president?
I never did this stuff very well; I personally told the truth in bishop's interviews, which is why I didn't get to go on temple trips. >.>
I sustain President Paternoster in his inspired efflorescence of spirit.
Ok I get that most of the people on here are either playing along or upset but seriously Cindy, are you for real???!!!!
@Anonymous (April 18): Really? You can't tell?
--- Making my point that some people can't tell that this is pointed farce ---
It really isn't a "farce", it is simply facts told in a first person account. Now, I'm just guessing, but I think it terrifies you that everything written on this blog is fact. Every statement is correctly referenced back to the original LDS documents, everything . As someone who has dedicated their life to the LDS faith, this must be bone chilling for you. Just saying.
I think only a few Mormons have to lie about facts. The rest of us just have to be ignorant and remain uninformed.
Please don't read any more of the facts found on President Paternoster's blog or elsewhere on the internet. Don't let apostates talk to you about facts. Don't read books containing facts about the Church unless they are published by Deseret Book. Then you'll never have to lie for the Lord.
Amen to Jim! Let the Authorities take that weight on their shoulders. You are so very wise.
My dear, beloved and holy President Paternoster,
First, let me apologize for my atrocious spelling and grammar. I am typing on my phone.....
This is a bit off topic, but I was hoping you could illuminate me on a subject that has been weighing heavily on my mind. Since the prophet is only a profit when speaking as such, how am I,( a lowly sister in Christ), supposed to know which is which? I have a similar question about the holey spirit. How does one know when the "sweet promptings of the spirit" are true? I ask because when I went to the temple for the first time, the ghost was prompting me to RUN!! I was indoctrinated my entire life that Satan cannot enter holy places. So, I know for sure that it was absolutely the "ghost-of-all-that-is-holey", who was prompting me to get out, ASAP. Is there a certain schedule the ghost works around? Same for the profit.
How can I know for certain that what I am hearing/sensing is from the lard?
I would appreciate any inspired insights you may have on this matter.
That is all, Yours in Spiritual Wifery Love,
Sister, even, Olsen-Veal. Amen
Thank you for this insightful post.
I'm a Christian Evangelist TO Mormons who's a NEVERMO.
When I first started the ministry, Chuck Sackett's book,"What's going on in there?" had just been published. (This was long before South Park's exposé.)
I remember being shocked that the best Mormons, temple Mormons, would lie to my face about the temple ceremony and dressing up with fig leaf aprons, telling me "We don't do that."
But then I read former LDS missionary William Shunn's Terror on Flight 789 and learned about the Higher Law where it is okay to lie for the Lord . . . err, Church.
Now I realize they were just keeping their heads (and bowels) about them.
It's an impressive testimony.
Mahonri Kimball is right. There has never been misrepresentation about our beliefs re: godhood.
We become exactly like God in every conceivable way, characteristic, and lifestyle element, but it is pure speculation to say that we will become Gods.
And just because an infinite succession of Gods before us have created planets for their spirit children to live on, doesn't necessarily mean that we would follow the same eternal pattern that has existed since the beginning of time.
To prove this, I have documented chat transcripts with LDS online missionaries, and you'll see that--not counting the first 3--all 4 explanations regarding Godhood were accurate and forthright:
http://www.truebelievingmormons.com/mormon-beliefs/mormon-chat-what-do-mormons-believe/
Let us not also forget about GB Hinckley telling that German reporter. The reporter asked why the church doesn't publish its financial reports. GB told the reporter that the church only tells tithing paying members what it does with tithing money. Well, dip me in poop and call me Stinky but I have never seen a report like that in all my life!
Why in the world would ordinary members have to know what god's annointed do with god's money? If it was our business god would demand open and transparent business dealings from the leadership, but god, in his wisdom, keeps the leadership from having to lie so that is why we can't know about such stuff. What would the members do if they knew tithing went into a three year investment pool (so the church can make lots more money) and then taken out and used for true tithing purposes. The same with the Perpetual Education Fund. The members contribute money, the church invests it, and the fund receives the profit from the fund. Members might get pissed at that stuff, so the leadership is not required by god to talk about it. They only have to account to god and not the common clay members of the church.
Praise to the Man (President Paternoster) for the spiritual courage to openly discuss issues that do not come before the general membership. Don't get weirded out President but if I were a woman I would want to be one of your spiritual wives too!
I've never visited this blog before, but I have one concern.
Why is it necessary to answer every question? I mean, for everyone, not just for "public figures"?
Why does every question ever asked by anyone DEMAND an answer?
I don't answer every question. There are times when I simply don't know.
To pretend to know the truth about Joseph Smith, for example, seems to me to be arrogant, when all of that happened almost 200 years ago. It's very hard to substantiate history. Historians try, I realize, but I don't pretend to have all the answers.
I understand the importance of not lying. And I understand that "defending faith" or defending people we don't know personally is less important than having integrity.
But what business is it of Jeffrey Holland's what Mitt Romney might do; it's not his business. It's not his stewardship. To speak for other people like that.
What is wrong with just saying, "I don't want to talk about it?"
Jesus did that. He was simply silent. Why can't "we" be silent when the time comes when questions come that we honestly don't have the answers for?
I blame public relations. It has become the "gospel" of the latter-days, sadly.
It's time for people simply to say, "I am not sure I know, so I would rather not say" or simply, "I can't answer that."
There is so much controversy surrounding Joseph Smith now that nobody knows WHO on earth or in heaven is lying or telling the truth about him.
So, why can't it just be left alone?
I agree with the basic premise. I think it's evil to lie. So it's better, simply, to say, "I won't answer; I can't answer."
Is that so terrible? Well, it won't be pleasing to the mainstream media, and it won't please a lot of people, but I think it might please God.
The reason Jeffrey Holland might be able to say something about Mitt Romney's Mormonism is because he is assumed to be an expert in the field of Mormonism. Of course, he may not be an expert. If so, he should just say, "I really don't know all that much about Mormons or their beliefs" and just leave it at that. But asking him questions about past temple oaths Mitt Romney would have made is reasonable. And expecting a straighforward, accurate and knowledgeable answer is also reasonable. So seeing him hum-haw around it, and attempt to bend the truth to avoid giving a real answer makes our beloved Church seem even more like a secretive and bizarre organization.
Saying, "I'm not going to talk about that" is also a secretive and bizarre answer that makes our religion seem like what the rest of the world considers it to be: cultish.
Lying for the lord makes me think of the time I said to a sweet sister I wont cum in your mouth and then I went ahead and did!
Or the time when I told a future priestess that I'll pull out and didn't!
It so wonderful the lord allows us to lie in the proper circumstances.
There is no difference between lying and lying for the lord. Lying is lying its deceptive and dishonest. Saying that it is OK to lie for the lord is nothing more than self deception and if anything shows lack of one's personal integrity.
The lord is our dear God, creator and father in Heaven, who knows ALL things. Above all, he stands for truth and encourage us all to seek after truth. The Lord EXPECTS us to be truthful at all times, and doesn't need nor want us to make up a lie for him. By having to lie for the Lord, or feel that lying for the lord is OK, its saying that you know better than HE does, which you don't. It disgusting and disgraceful, there is no higher spiritual value in lying especially when it comes the lord. It is a typical example of taking the lord's name in vain with utter disrespect at the highest level. To me, lying for the lord is saying that you have the arrogance and ego to think that you are better than the lord, and to think that you know more than the lord our God. As a stake president if that is what you are preaching you have some serious repentance to do.
In other words, Mormons lie a LOT.
I get it. They're whole religion is alie. It's what they do.
It is very sad to me to see a group of people portraying themselves to be servants of the Lord, blindly attempting to justify their wrong doings. Did God himself not command that "Thou Shalt Not Lie"? Yet, the LDS call it “Lying for the Lord”, thinking that God Himself would approve?
I used to be a Mormon, until my eyes were opened, and I realized I had been lied to my entire life. The LDS give the milk before the meat, yes. Just as any cult does. You are lured in by the attractive, while the unattractive truth is hidden from you. Then, after you have been drawn into it, you are exposed to the meat, and start making excuses for why the meat is ok with the Lord, even though it stands blatantly against what God represents.
Joseph Smith was a liar, con-artist, adulterer, and a pedophile. However, when a member learns of his deeds, it is instant ear-plugging and humming, because surely there is a reason for it, and God must surely approve. If a member dares to question it, they are immediately excommunicated and branded an apostate to prevent them from bringing the light of truth to others. Again, a normal action for a cult.
You are blind, and you will not see until you take a step back and look at the Church, its origins, the people that created it, and its true history.
The Book of Abraham is a blatant fantasy translation. The Book of Mormon is a plagiarized work of fiction created by several people and not just Joseph Smith himself. There is no physical evidence nor DNA evidence of any kind supporting the claims of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both sought, and achieved, three things: Sex, Money, and Power. And they achieved it through a religious fantasy and deception. A deception that is still being propagated today by the deceived.
What a load!
What a load of bologna! This huckster is not a Stake President! Even his picture has been photo-shopped! The head is not his head. Blow up the picture and you will see very plainly that a different head was added!
Speaking of liars... pretending to be a stake president is Incredibly revolting and dishonest. But then again, when you are a liar, any amount of dishonesty is "OK" if it allows you to deceive, doesn't it?
Lying is NEVER ACCEPTABLE especially if you ca,ll yourself a Christian. Liars have their place in the LAKE of FIRE. God makes this perfectly clear. How can you say this with a straight face? Lying is wrong, and deadly to unsaved people like LDS.
Whatcha doing? Nothing just cultin, writing this article about lying for the lord. After my beloved swallow this we will teach them how to be great salesmen,you should start screening Alec Baldwin speech in glengarry Glen Ross on Sunday meetings. Hustle baby it's all for the loooord.
Whatcha doing? Nothing just cultin, writing this article about lying for the lord. After my beloved swallow this we will teach them how to be great salesmen,you should start screening Alec Baldwin speech in glengarry Glen Ross on Sunday meetings. Hustle baby it's all for the loooord.
"Let's like to make the church look good, because it's history makes it look really really bad!" Wow. Can you just open your eyes?
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