Monday, October 31, 2011

The Danger of Logic and Reason

Brothers and Sisters I consider talks given at General Conference to be both the mind and will of God and always counsel my stake that they be taken as scripture even for the edification of the saints in these the latter days. 

It is in this spirit that I would like to discuss the General Conference talk entitled *‘Testimony’ given by Elder Charles Didier of the Seventy a few years ago in which we learned that ‘the real strength of an individual is to be found in his testimony and in living it.’

If you are not feeling strong as an individual, if you are struggling with a sense of self worth, if you feel less than those of us who have and are living according to our testimonies I plead with you to take the necessary steps to increase your testimony that you may emulate more fully your leaders and their example.

In his talk Elder Didier gave us certain keys necessary to gaining the revelation required to obtain a testimony. I consider these keys to be absolutely essential and would ask that you ponder each of them prayerfully.  In key number 2 we are expressly warned “Do not look at reason, logic, or the philosophies of men and theories of the world.”

I cannot emphasize enough how important avoiding reason and logic are in gaining a solid and unbreakable testimony of the Church.  Those who gain a belief or testimony through reason and logic can just as easily lose that testimony through the very same process.  This has happened to many individuals who have built their testimonies on the sandy surface of reason.

Please pay special attention to the correct way to gain a testimony as given in this ensign article; it is almost identical to how I gained my unshakeable testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon:

**“At the age of 22, I realized I had never read the Book of Mormon,” Tom remembers. “I knew the Lord had given me a second chance, and I became determined to find out His plan for me. My dad bought me a large Book of Mormon, cut off the binding, and put it in a three-ring binder. Assisted by my mother, I read from January to September, and then I decided to take Moroni’s challenge. I expected an immediate response, but nothing happened. Finally, after several prayers, my heart began pounding, and I realized that I had known it was true all along.”

It is important for all (and especially our youth) to realize that in that moment of silence when you are praying to know if the Book of Mormon is true if you notice that your heart rate increases this is to be taken as a sign from God that the book is true and that you have known it all along.  Had Tom not known how to interpret his feelings correctly he may have erroneously thought that the Lord had not answered his prayer. 

Skeptics who are well known for using reason and logic may say that this is a completely ridiculous way to know truth and that heart beats have nothing to do with God communicating to us, but we know they are wrong.  If your heart beats faster than normal when praying about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon you may know of a surety not only that the book is true, but also that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, Thomas S. Monson is his authorized servant today and (if you are in my stake) that President William Lilburn Godfrey Paternoster has been ordained to watch over the flocks in this part of the Lords vineyard in these the latter days.

It is important to understand that Tom’s testimony is much less likely to falter than others because he gained it not through reason and logic but through direct revelation from the Lord as an answer to prayer.  Those who lose their testimonies and try to bring people like Tom down to their level don’t seem to understand that their efforts are wasted, for you cannot reason a person out of a position they arrived at without reason in the first place. 

Brothers and Sisters you have a testimony.  You would not be reading this humble blog by a faithful Stake President were it not so. Don’t you ever doubt it, no matter what anybody tells you, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


  





81 comments:

LaDell Tanner said...

Amen and thank you President. Once while pondering the construction of Jaredite submarines I felt the seductive, but corrosive whisperings of logic and reason. As I envisioned these ancient boats, constructed like saucers, lit with rocks touched by the hand of God, Filled with people and animals flipping to and fro, animal dung and sawdust filling the air, I thought to myself "Self, this is the most ridiculous f*cking story I have ever heard". It was only through prayer, fasting and electroconvulsive therapy that I was able to regain my testimony.

chris said...

Thank you so much for your post. Your message has so much truth in it. I can testify that by using this method I was able to know that aerobics and marathons are true. I would not have known that God wanted me to do sprints at the track save it be for my increased heart rate. Thank you God for stimulating a muscle in my chest and leaving that organ in my head alone!

Anonymous said...

I'm just a random reader. I'm curious, what do you mean by testimony? Do you mean that our personal story cannot have logic or reasoning to it? Doesn't that mean that God has no logic or reasoning for our existence, because after all, our testimony should be for the glory of God, right? I'm also curious why you denounce reason and logic? Again, doesn't God have reason and logic? So wouldn't that mean that we have reason and logic evident within our world because our creator created it?

Thanks for your feedback. I'm just asking some questions to get a better understand as to what you believe.

Descartes said...

Cogito ergo mormonus non sum

Melph the son of Zelph said...

CHAPTER 5
Melph decides to write a few more things. He promises this book is true, and
challenges all to find out the truthfulness for themselves through Melph's
promise. Melph desires all to live in peace and harmony. [About 401 A.D.]
1. And it came to pass that I decided to write a few more things.
2. Now many shall say this book be not a true book, for they shall think that
it was made up, and that the things written in it did not really happen. And
the enemies of this book shall say that because it has bad grammar, yea, it is
not a true book, and because no evidence doth support it, yea, it is not a true
book.
3. Nevertheless, believe not the words of the enemies of this book, for I
challenge thee to take a gamble, and believe the words within this book, yea,
even shall ye roll the dice on the truthfulness of this book. For many
Lamanites do roll the dice, and gamble for money, but yea, no gamble shall
be more important than betting on the truthfulness of this book.
4. And I promise thee that if ye ask if this book be not true, and roll a pair of
dice with a sincere heart, and desire exceedingly for the book to be true, yea,
the dice shall reveal the truthfulness of this book unto thee.
5. And if ye roll a seven, yea, it doth mean this book be a true book, and ye
shall rejoice at the knowledge of the truthfulness of this book. For no learned
man shall sway thy opinion with supposed evidences against this book, for
once the dice have spoken the debate is over.
6. And if ye roll not a seven, yea, fear not that this book be not true, for this
book is true, yea, even do I promise.
7. And something that is true cannot be proven untrue. Wherefore, if ye roll
not a seven, it be not the fault of this book, and it doth prove not that this
book be untrue, because this book is true, wherefore, it cannot be proven
untrue.
8. Wherefore, if ye roll not a seven it was an error, and ye must roll the dice
again, yea, even with a more sincere heart, and even desiring more to know
the truth.
9. And if ye again roll not a seven, and if ye roll not a seven three times, yea,
it be the fault of the dice. Wherefore, retrieve different dice, and roll again.
10. And ye must keep rolling dice until ye roll seven. And after the manner
in which ye roll a seven, behold, ye shall rejoice at thy knowledge of the
truthfulness of this book.
11. And I bear witness unto thee that ye shall know this book is true through
the dice.
12.And it came to pass that I desire to say a few more things before I really
do end my writing, yea, even do I say that me and the Three Nephites do live
together, yea, even are we best friends.
13. And the Three Nephites are white, and I am dark. And like unto the
stripes on a zebra, yea, we do live side by side, even in perfect harmony.
14. And I exhort all to fight not, and to be friends, for 'tis better to havest
friends than to havest enemies.
15. And now I do really make an end to my writings, and I go to spend time
with my friends, yea, even the Three Nephites, for we have a show to
perform soon, and we must rehearse.
16. Wherefore, I bid ye adieu.

Brigham Taft Pratt said...

Isn't the gospel wonderful President? It all makes perfect sense as long as you don't think about it. I'm so thankful that I have been blessed with believing blood and that my parents began programming me at an early age. Unlike Tom, I do not even need to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it to know that it is true. My faith is stronger than that.

I think it is important to mention that, as with most things, we have to recognize that Satan is always there to deceive us when it comes to spiritual experiences. For example, while feeling your heart beat faster at a Mormon church is a sign of truthfulness, the same experience at a baptist church does not make that church true. Also, we should be careful about strong feelings about the bible because it is not as correct as the Book of Mormon.

My final comment is for any of the young men that could be reading. Young men, throbbing sensations whilst surfing the internet are only appropriate if you are visiting one of the Church's official websites. That is all.

JohnGalt_UT said...

I personally believe that we shouldn't just reject all logic and reason; instead, we should selectively reject logic and reason when it leads us to false conclusions.

For instance, logic plays a role in my testimony. I know that I hold the Melchizedek priesthood, because of the healing powers that I have frequently been able to invoke. Now, could I get my priesthood power from a false church? No. Therefore, Logic dictates that the church is true (of course this isn't the only reason, but it does strengthen my testimony)

Everything that increases our faith is good (including logic), and anything that weakens our faith is bad (including logic).

Ain't No Mo No Mo said...

President, were you perchance at the restaurant where I sat with my friend on Saturday afternoon? I only ask because we were discussing the lack of logic in the One True Church.

Brother Heber said...

President,
If I may expand on your council. In our home we have stressed the importance to our children of following the inspired council of apostle of the Lord Boyd K Packer. In his talk titled Candle of the Lord president Packer encourages missionaries that a true testimony is created in bearing it.
I encourage my children to bear testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon at every possible occasion even if they do not yet know for themselves that it is true.
At a recent early morning family scripture study our youngest child named Zoram challenged that this approach is not being completely honest and we should only tell others that we know the church is true when we have received a witness for ourselves.
I was left dumbstruck that one of my children would dare to question the council of an apostle of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Whilst I was contemplating the punishment I would dispense to my wayward child, my oldest child Nephi stood up and rebuked his younger brother.
Nephi explained that President Packer's words amount to the words of Jesus Christ and Zoram should immediately ask forgiveness for questioning the words of our Savior.
President I would like to bear testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and is the most correct book on earth.
In the name of our beloved Savior, even the Lamb Jesus Christ, Amen


http://lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng

Adam said...

I was wondering if anyone could help me understand. This is the question I asked and I have yet to get an answer. I any not looking for an argument, just some one to explain what it is you believe. I respect what you believe, but I just want clarity.

"I'm just a random reader. I'm curious, what do you mean by testimony? Do you mean that our personal story cannot have logic or reasoning to it? Doesn't that mean that God has no logic or reasoning for our existence, because after all, our testimony should be for the glory of God, right? I'm also curious why you denounce reason and logic? Again, doesn't God have reason and logic? So wouldn't that mean that we have reason and logic evident within our world because our creator created it?

Thanks for your feedback. I'm just asking some questions to get a better understand as to what you believe."

Also, why do you guys believe that someones (Your president or your prophets) words are equal to Christ's words? Isn't Christ divine and we are merely human? So, isn't by claiming a humans words are "scripture" or "equal to Christ's, doesn't that mean that you are placing a mere human in a divine role?

Can someone help me have clarity in what you mean? maybe I'm misunderstanding what you believe.

Insana D said...

"Those who lose their testimonies and try to bring people like Tom down to their level don’t seem to understand that their efforts are wasted, for you cannot reason a person out of a position they arrived at without reason in the first place." President Paternoster, this statement is so precious and plain to me. It's like trying to tempt a vegetarian with bacon to tempt a devout Mormon with reason and logic. Those skills are like Kryptonite and very toxic to the LDS FAITH based beliefs.

Get thee behind me baconaters!!

I can attest to the warmth and burning of the bosom in all things of a Godly nature. Lately I've been having hot flashes, sometimes 30 or more a day and they are just like the warm nearly suffocating feeling I had when I tried to make sense of the doctrine of the LDS church.

I know the church is true because when I contemplate the complex and conflicting doctrines, history, leadership, culture, and beliefs my heart races so much, my head begins to throb and I feel a churning in my stomach that makes me start to sweat and clutch at my throat. Just stepping into an LDS church creates such a strong physiological reaction that it must be true for it to cause me to feel such anxiety and panic.

Going to church is so special, so precious and important that I would never sully that experience by going too often so that the sensations of anxiety and panic become commonplace. For those reasons, I try to only go to church or think about the LDS doctrine a few times a year, and only for very special occasions.

For example, I have another grandchild due in April and I'm anticipating traveling to see my daughter and her family at that blessed event. Should I be there on the Sunday they bless this child I will be obligated to attend. I am getting an increased heart rate at just the thought of it, therefore it must be true.

kolobian said...

I, too, have felt the demonic pull of reason & logic in my life. I was one of those unruly children who questioned everything growing up. Had I lived under the Law of Moses I surely would have been stoned to death by parents and village.

When I asked my Bishop how to reconcile 2 Nephi 2:22 with scientific observation he seemed surprised and asked me to elaborate. I told him that according to the most correct of any book on earth there was "no death" of any kind before the fall of adam; that if adam & eve had not fallen that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end."

My bishop said, "so what?" And I responded we have found hundreds of thousands of fossils that are millions of years old, and according to the scriptures adam fell only roughly 6,000 years ago. He seemed crestfallen, like I had punched him in the stomach, and then suddenly smiled and said that Jehova had used pieces of other planets to construct this one when it was in the orbit of Kolob so those fossils are from other worlds.

This didn't make too much sense, but I chose to lean on my bishop's testimony until his wisdom could sink in. Then I learned that when Jehova & Michael created the earth Jehova told Michael, "See, yonder is matter unorganized. Let us organize into a world."

If the matter that Jehova & Michael used to create this world was unorganized, then it couldn't have been organized into fossils and dinosaur bones.

Dear President Paternoster, please help me make sense of this. Reason & Logic are killing my testimony.

Stake Pres. said...

kolobian why troublest thou me with these things? The fossils and bones are there from the time of the flood when all things were destroyed save it be those on the ark. The methods of 'dating' fossils and rocks have been shown time and again to be flawed.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all knowledge will be given unto you as it has been given unto me.

Adam said...

Ok...since no one has answered me yet, I'll make this a little more specific. Stake President, would you care to help me understand? And if anyone else wants to add anything, you are more than welcome too.

I was wondering if anyone could help me understand. These are the questions I asked and I have yet to get an answer. I any not looking for an argument, just some one to explain what it is you believe and why you believe it. I respect what you believe, but I just want clarity.

I'm just a random reader. I'm curious, what do you mean by testimony? Do you mean that our personal story cannot have logic or reasoning to it? Doesn't that mean that God has no logic or reasoning for our existence, because after all, our testimony should be for the glory of God, right? I'm also curious why you denounce reason and logic? Again, doesn't God have reason and logic? So wouldn't that mean that we have reason and logic evident within our world because our creator created it?

Thanks for your feedback. I'm just asking some questions to get a better understand as to what you believe.

Also, why do you guys believe that someones (Your president or your prophets) words are equal to Christ's words? Isn't Christ divine and we are merely human? So, isn't by claiming a humans words are "scripture" or "equal to Christ's, doesn't that mean that you are placing a mere human in a divine role?

Can someone help me have clarity in what you mean? maybe I'm misunderstanding what you believe.

Stake Pres. said...

Adam, by testimony we are talking about a spiritual witness of truth. As church members we are asked to pray for a witness that the Book of Mormon is true - when we receive that witness (as in the example given in my post) we can then testify that we know without doubt that the book is true. I would invite you to do likewise (read and pray about the Book of Mormon), that you too may gain a testimony.

Adam said...

Great! I appreciate your response. That helps me better understand what you mean. I was under the impression you meant our personal story (about our own personal lives).

I was wondering if you could also help me understand what our purpose in life is? Why do we exist as humans? Essentially, I want to know why you believe what you believe. Why do you denounce all logic and reasoning? Because isn't God a logical and reasoning being? That is not to say that we, as humans can fully understand him. God is omniscient and incomprehensible, is he not? Aren't be created in God's image? So, wouldn't this mean that because God has logic and reasoning, that we can be like him (not not fully comprehend) logic and reasoning?

Anonymous said...

"Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence." - Bertrand Russell

Lisey said...

Adam, Our wonderful Stake President is not available to answer investigators questions. With a humble heart I suggest you go to mormon.org and click the button called 'chat with a Missionary'. They can spend all their time answering your questions, in fact, it would make their day! Also, keep in mind their are two sides to every story and I know Stake President would chastise me for my unbelief, but logic and reason dictate my heart and thus I suggest you go to 'whisper' mormonthink.com before you speak to the missionaries so you have some insightful questions to ask them. Cheers.

Adam said...

Great. I'll check that out. But why can he not answer my question but responded to other peoples? Like I've said previously, I'm not trying to argue, but rather get an understanding as to what you believe and why. I do not ask to criticize, but rather to gain an understand. But I'd still appreciate an answer from him.

Also, I don't feel asking why you believe what you believe is an "investigator" type question. Have I not asked only questions that pertain to a better understanding of who God is and who we are as humans? I apologize if any of my questions have come across as an attack or "investigator" like. I am legitimately interested in why you believe these things. So again, my question is why do you reject logic and reasoning? After all, this is the topic of your post. Why can you not explain why you believe that?

Again, I want to reiterate that I ask these things simply for my own interest, not to criticize or argue. Please, can I get a response?

kolobian said...

Dear President,

As usual, your priesthood has illuminated my mind and softened my heart.

Of course the fossils and dinosaur bones are from the great flood. How foolish of me to not see the obvious truth that was staring me in the face.

Dinosaurs would have been too large to fit on the ark, and all of those tiny insects and such would serve no purpose to the children of Noah once the waters receded.

I trust Lucifer removed any references from the bible of Dinosaurs as a way of deceiving the very elect. How cunning is the plan of the evil one.

This is why we only believe in the bible as far as it is translated correctly. Most of it is not. Since much of the bible is confusing we should rely on the Book of Mormon as it is both inspiring and edifying.

I continue to bear my solemn witness that President Paternoster is a true stake president in the one and only true church on the face of the earth. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Joshua said...

Hello my name is Joshua

I read this blog today and I loved it and I know that God is looking out for me, eariler today I was reading the book of mormon and decided to start from the beginning again, and as I read my thoughts and feelings hit me and I also knew that the book of mormon is true I have been praying for about a year to have a increase of testimony in the book of mormon and the church and I also realized that it was true all a long I have grown up with the book and I still continue to learn from it. Now I have just read Adams last comment and not all but, what we mean by investigator in the church is just someone who is searching and trying to find out if the church is true it is not looked at as a "investigator attack" but someone who wants to know the truth and is searching for it.

Adam said...

Thank you Joshua for your clarity in that. I misunderstood what they meant by "investigator".

I'd like Stake President to answer this though because it is his blog. Since he wrote it, shouldn't he be able to explain his meaning behind it? A personal explanation from him would mean more because he is the author of the blog.

I'd greatly appreciate an answer from him. So again, my question is why do you reject all logic and reasoning? Isn't God a reasoning and logical being? Aren't we made in God's image? so, aren't we logical and reasoning beings? (but not fully because God is omniscient and incomprehensible) why do you believe what you believe?

I look forward to a response from Stake President.

Chris S said...

Adam, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think that President would agree that logic and reasoning tend to lead people away from God and into the arms of so-called-science.

For example: some people use their 'reasoning' to conclude that a world with so much suffering in it must not be ruled by a benevolent God who intervenes on our behalf. Of course we all know that this is false; God loves us and will help us with any problem, no matter how small.

Given the fact that Logic and Reasoning can often destroy faith, it is better to 'be safe than sorry' and trust the scriptures and our church leaders.

kolobian said...

Adam,

There is a difference between human logic and god's logic.

For example, we humans have puny brains that cannot comprehend the mind of god. When logically examining the atonement, for example, a logical person would conclude that the god of the universe doesn't actually need to sacrifice one human being for the sins of everyone else. An all-powerful being could simply forgive everyone with no conditions.

Further, a logical person might deduce that a god who knows the future couldn't possibly pretend to be surprised when his creations do something evil, because he knew they would do it before he ever created them in the first place.

A logical person, therefore, would be forced to conclude that god is ultimately responsible for all sin and that we are all simply doing what he knew we would do before we ever existed.

You see how logic can lead one to conclude that god is an owl? We must hold fast to the iron rod and not be swayed by the logic and reason of those in the great & spacious building. They mock god, but god will not be mocked.

In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Adam said...

Thank you Kolobian for answering me. That means a lot and it's greatly appreciated.

I understand what you are saying. I do believe that people can take logic and reasoning to the extreme and push away God. But does that mean we should push away all logic? For example, just because scientists get a better understanding of how a cell works, does that mean we should consider it all lies, rather than looking at the creator who made the cells? Don't things like this just prove God's existence all the more?

Anyways, thank you for the answer, that was all I was looking for.

Anonymous said...

The President's inspired remarks are fully consistent with the justly venerated talk "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet", given in 1980 by future prophet Ezra Taft Benson, and still a source of material for General Conference talks today.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.... We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet and you’ll be blessed and time will show you have done the right thing.

Eighth: The Prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelation of God and reasoning of men—between the prophet and the professor.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

May we persevere in humility and self-discipline, mindful that truth is found only in the revealed word of God.

Joseph K. Packer said...

I too gained a testimony of The Book of Mormon through reading its wise words and sincere prayer. The first time I read a beautiful passage in the book of Ether 15:30-31 and reads:
30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.

31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

When I read this beautiful verses I was filled with the spirit. If you were to ask my wife she would say that I was filled of fecal matter and that was what caused the warmth in my bosom, but I insist it was the holy spirit. Now I know for shure that this book is true. Not from logic but from the soirit of revelation. I say these things to you in the name of our Savior even the Saint of Israel Jesus Christ, Amen.

Lisey said...

Adam, have you ever read the Onion? Well that blog only comments on worldly events, while our wonderful guide Stake Pres. Paternoster comments on Celestial events. Indeed, the LDS Onion couldn't do anybetter. Now truly, truly, go to the sites I suggested if you want answers not in keeping with that great layered vegetable.

Emma Snyde said...

Adam, I don't often sources that aren't by general authorities of the church or published by Deseret Book, but you might want to Google a certain law, "Poe's Law" for some more insight into this blog.

Insana D said...

For those that respond on this inspired blog and don't receive any direct personal answers or even an acknowledgement that they responded, it's probably because our dear Stake President is following the example of our dear Lord and Father in Heaven who leave us with a stupor of thought, an emptiness and perplexed anxiety so that we become more independent, more resourceful and eventually find the answer ourselves.

If you had asked the Stake President to help you find your keys he could easily have done that but answering complex questions is best left to the dark recesses of our troubled minds.

Just so long as you don't use reason or logic you should be fine.

When I've asked Bishops and Stake Presidents deeply troubling questions I've been dismissed and told to focus on my role as a mother and help meet. This shows me that they are inspired men of God because God too would have dismissed me because I have am a woman.

Praise be to Stake President.

Anonymous said...

15 year old Bruce uses heart-pounding reason:

So, if my heart pounds, whatever I'm thinking about is true? Like when I'm alone, late at night, in my room, in my bed, thinking about David, wishing he could be there with me.

Then I experience even MORE and GREATER pounding.

So, it MUST all be true! I'm going to tell David, and Mom, and Dad, and all my friends!

The truth is the truth, right?

Ibowedmyheadandsaidyes said...

Now I am more confused than ever. My bishop tells me masturbation is bad, and if I keep doing it horrible things will happen to me...like I will become a rapist, or a child molester, or even worse...a homosexual. I was starting to believe him, but now I read this blog about how things that cause an increased heart rate are true.

My heart rate increases a LOT when I masturbate. I suppose this means masturbation is true! I thank you, President, from the bottom of my heart for helping me to open my eyes and see that now I can hold to the rod AND masturbate too!

I testify that I now know that masturbation is true. In the sacred and holy name of even Christmas Eve,

Amen.

Joseph K. Packer said...

Well Ibowmyhead...if that is the answer that the Lord has given you through the spirit of revelation then That is what you should do. Masturbation is after all a sin. Playing with the rod on the other hand is not. I think that you can hold the rod and you can gently slap the rod and try to choke it from time to time

Chris S said...

Ibowedmyhead...

Technically, masturbation is a homosexual act, and if you are under 18, child molestation.

Keith said...

Actually, Chris S, "homosexual" means with another person of the same sex. There's another word for sexual relations with oneself, which is "autosexual". So, masturbation is autosexual. And lots of fun.

kolobian said...

These disgusting comments have no place on the blog of a Priesthood leader of Zion.

Please save the masturbation discussions for your bishop's interviews.

We are here to be edified by the uplifting and inspiring words of President Paternoster, the Brethren, and the Comforter.

Surely you learned such potty talk on anti-mormon websites like exmormon.org. Get behind me, apostates!

Ibowedmyheadandsaidyes said...

Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation. Masturbation.

I love masturbation.

P.S. I just masturbated.

Freethinker said...

No disrespect meant, but isn't this whole battle against logic and reason completely crazy? Logic and reason is what ultimately gave us: Modern medicine, great literature, and so many other things like a greater understanding of the universe around us. Without logic and reason, we would most likely would not have come up with the scientific method which better helps us to understand the universe.

Freethinker said...

Secondly, how on earth is radiometric dating flawed??? Like, Carbon dating for example..? It's very reliable and gives good estimates within roughly 100 years of the actual age of whatever you are measuring the age of. Carbon dating works by knowing it's predictable decay rate (half life = ~6300 years) and we can measure how much Carbon-14 there is inside of the object compared to the outside world. If it is less than a 50-50 ratio, then the object is over ~6300 years. Other dating methods like Argon-Argon work similarly to Carbon-14 dating.

Freethinker said...

Lastly, I can't quite tell whether or not this site is for real. It's possible you could all be so delusional, but you could be faking it. Damn you Poe's law.

Anonymous said...

My heart beats really fast when I read and/or watch porn. Does that mean God enjoy watching/reading porn too? Or does he watch/reads it through me?

Anonymous said...

I have just visited this website out of curiosity, somebody posted it on facebook. Thinking that this is a genuine blog from a REAL STAKE PRESIDENT of the LDS church, I began reading the whole blog, I then realized that this is a work of either an ex-mormon, who was excommunicated from the LDS church due to some serious sins or just a plain anti-mormon, who has nothing else to do, but "kick against the pricks". This is a work of a very good deceiver, the father of all lies. Beware.

Anonymous said...

Wow. You people are brainwashed.

Anonymous said...

this is the craziest shit I've read on the internet all day. the 'demonic pull of reason & logic'~~ really? why would your imaginary friend give you the ability to apply reason & logic if it didn't intend for you to use it?

Anonymous said...

Wow. What a well thought out argument. When I was religious, I once heard the phrase "if God wanted us to do what he said without question, his chosen people would be dogs." Why would any supreme being bestow us with the gift of sentience if we were not intented to use it? If you believe that reason and logic are paths away from the Lord, who has hidden himself form the eyes of man, and that our bodies are a gift form God, then god is an malicious individual who does not want us to succeed. Think of it this way: Your biological parents are sticklers for promptness. They want you to arrive at a party they are throwing on time, and give you a map. However, the map given to you has inaccurate information and will lead you away from your destination, which your parents are aware of. Why would they do this? If logic and reason are "enemies" to a "supreme and divine creator," then why the hell did the "supreme and divine creator" give us brains capable of reasoning and logical thought?

There are two possible branches, one non-branching and one with two paths. They are the following:

{A}
1) God does not exist, and we are a product of evolution.

The other branch is as such:

{B}
1) God did not intend for us to have logic and reasoning, but we have it anyway; thus, God's plan is therefore imperfect.

2) God willfully gave us an organ which allows us to do something that he does not want us to do, and hides himself.

Now, if we examine all three possibilities (and, I admit, this is a rather sketchy and hastily drawn-up demonstration pertaining only to the Christian God), we arrive at one of two points: either the Christian God is nonexistant, or the Christian God is malevolent. What kind of an ass intentionally gives you something that will lead you away, something he tells you NOT to do.

Now, before you start trolling, I recommend you actually READ up on evolution - I suggest Richard Dawkin's "The Greatest Show on Earth." Also, as a footnote, before you start in on how I don't understand the Latter-Day Saint faith and viewpoints, there's something you should know - I was an Elder in the church, married and sealed in the Seattle Temple, and even had the garments. I know my own, and my ex wife's, celestial name. Because I don't want to offend my ex wife, I won't reveal hers. Mine is Sol.

Also, as one last message, I am HORRIFIED that my only son is being raised as a Mormon. Such an organization that would preach against logic and reason is a cancer upon mankind, bound in flawed superstition and misunderstanding, and entirely self serving.

And if any of you call me unreasonable, you better talk to my pimp hand.

Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith had several wives, a few of whom were underage girls whom he anally penetrated, then made them taste the fecal matter from his member. This is a metaphor for your "belief". You're eating shit off some old crazy guy's dick.

Anonymous said...

Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan Satan

Anonymous said...

Satan is the ULTIMATE DECEIVER......which would mean he wouldn't appear as a troll in the comments section, he would actually be the guy writing the article, or even the guy who founded Mormonism...and now all of you people who believe so devoutly are actually following Him. Or is that too logical???

Socialistshawn said...

Seems familiar “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God” Martin Luther

Socialistshawn said...

Mormons, you can do better. Pick an atheist to lead you!!!

Anonymous said...

You do realize logic and reasoning is what created this magically machine you are using to post this ludicrous article?

If you are telling your followers to cast away logic and reasoning then you are a hypocrite if you don't also cast away all the benefits it has brought forth.

Ever gone to a Doctor? Then I guess you still rely on this crazy concept called logic. Think modern medicines were just found laying on the ground? Oh wait, that would make sense after throwing away your free thought.

PS. The only true God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Loz said...

To all the anonymous posters railing against the President, please find some actual Mormons to harrass about their whacked beliefs. You all seem to think you have wonderful wisdom and knowledge to impart but you are all clearly retarded enough not to realise that the President and most of the commenters are non/ex-mormons who come here to have a chuckle at ourselves for the crap we used to believe and the crap our friends and family still do. Go find some mormon apologist's blog or website and impart of your gems to them. Sorry to out you Pres but it is tiring reading these comments amongst some of the hilarious ones that help me get through the work day.

Chris S said...

"You do realize logic and reasoning is what created this magically machine you are using to post this ludicrous article?"

Interesting theory. Have you ever thought about how the 'scientific revolution' didn't really get started until after the gospel had been restored to the earth by Joseph Smith? You might call this a coincidence, but I think it proves that most of the scientific and technological advances that the world has enjoyed were revealed to us by God, even if the researchers don't understand the ultimate source of their new knowledge. The only exception to this would be the atomic bomb, which was (obviously) given to us by Satan.

Anonymous said...

OK this is definitely satirical the crap spewing out in the comment section makes creationists sound like well educated people...

Ibowedmyheadandsaidyes said...

I don't understand half of this debate that has been going on here...and I am a master debater. But what I do know, amd make no mistake about it, I KNOW that President Bill Paternoster is a man called of god to spread his holy seed to the field that is white and ready to harvest. And Lo! He that thrusteth in his pickle with his might layeth up in whores and perisheth not but bringeth salvation unto his soul within the shadows if the everlasting hills. Peace be unto you this day and always follow the profit for he knows the way!

In the name of summers eve,

Amen.

Jason said...

So let me get this straight: God gives man a mind with the ability to think logically and use reason, gifts like any other gifts that people are endowed with, and you say that we should ignore these gifts? And the main reason we should ignore these gifts seems to be because they would lead someone to question your teachings.

It is times like this that I truly hope there is a god so that you (and others) will be properly punished for the ignorance, lies, hate, etc that so many of his supposed followers inflict upon others.

Peterson said...

So if your heart beats faster that is a sign from God? Unless it's baptist church then it's not a sign. Don't use logic or reason - or use logic and reason until they lead you to a conclusion you don't like.

Do you wonder why no one takes you seriously? Your brains need to be born again.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr President and Faithful Mormons,

So you base what you consider to be true on a physiological response to what you believe to be direct revelation from god. Is that correct? Did you know that these physiological responses are known to be associated with belief, Mormon and otherwise? My point is that if you can accept such a sensation as proof, then all other religions must also be true.
I'm concerned that your argument against reason and logic is simply a tool to trap people into your faith. For without reason, how can you answer the obvious and necessary questions like "How can I reconcile the fact that Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist with the fact that he founded a religion based on artifacts no one else was allowed to see?".
Let's not forget that logic and reason were the very tools that led to the computer you are currently using to read this. So far, I have not seen a faith-powered computer or useful invention of any sort.

Respectfully,
The One True Swade

Stake Pres. said...

Thank you all for your comments. Keep in mind that this blog was intended as a place for faithful members of the Church to discuss our teachings. Also note that there are Sisters who read this so please keep comments appropriate.

In this particular blog post I have highlighted a talk given by a General Authority of the church at a General Conference session and have discussed an article given in the ensign magazine; links have been provided.

Members of the Church consider these talks to be the mind and will of God and we willingly obey the counsel given by our faithful leaders.

I know that as each one of you prays about this message you will know by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true. This is a promise I give unto you.

Lovingly,

President Paternoster

UnapologeticApologist said...

If logic were true, then everyone would agree about everything. But we don't all agree about everything, therefore, logic is not true.

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wasn't the true church, then it wouldn't have a living prophet. But it does have a living prophet, therefore it is the true church.

NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!

Anonymous said...

What a load of bullshit. How can people still fall for such incoherent lies is beyond me.

Anonymous said...

YOUR GOING TO DROWN AMERICA!

Peterson said...

"If logic were true, then everyone would agree about everything. But we don't all agree about everything, therefore, logic is not true."

How illogical is that? Oh wait, I think I just figured it out: Some people aren't logical.

Laban the Younger said...

Loz;

Some of us find the greatest amusement when naive posters play their part. Do you really want to only have people like you and me post here?

Knowledge is power said...

All of you people need to gather up every single one of your children and send them straight to science class. PRONTO!

k9mmilla said...

I can't believe some of the crap i've read on this comment thread. The best gem was from Brigham Taft Pratt, saying "It all makes perfect sense if you don't think about it" Are you people effing kidding me??? Logic and reason are what finally carried us out of the dark ages. You know, the dark ages where the church had control over everything and humanity was stuck wallowing in medieval misery??? Use the logic and reason that you learned in kindergarten and you will see the childishness of holding views like these.

Chris S said...

k9mmilla,

The problem with the dark ages was not that a church controlled everything, but that the wrong church controlled everything. We know that in the millenium, Jesus will establish 'the Kingdom,' a righteous theocracy, led by the Prophet and Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

k9mmilla said...

I repeat, use the logic and reason you learned in kindergarten and you will see the childishness of holding views like these. You can't possibly "KNOW" any of the things you think you "KNOW", because none of it is rooted in reality. In the world of religion, yours is a bad novelty shop version, a bad parody of a bad instition. Like I tell my kids, grow up and act your age

k9mmilla said...

Forgive me....a bad parody of a bad institution.

kolobian said...

How sad it is to see what the public education system has done to the righteous souls of the noble & great ones our father Abraham beheld in the glorious vision translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith from Egyptian Papyrii that Heavenly Father delivered into his hands.

The technological advances we enjoy today are the product of the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as foretold by the prophets of old. Modern scientific advances are not the product of evolution or ingenuity, but rather the glorious light of Christ illuminating the minds of the children of men to prepare a medium through which faithful elect brethren like President Paternoster may share the truth about our purpose in life and in the eternities.

Logic & Reason are the tools of Lucifer. Be not led astray, brothers & sisters. When the brethren have spoken the thinking has been done. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Cindy said...

Very good post President. I very much enjoyed re-reading those articles you referenced to. There have been some very good comments about why we should not rely on reason and logic when it comes to our testimonies but it seems that there are other who either can't or don't want to understand. It isn't that we disregard all reason and logic it's just that we need to learn when it is appropriate to use it and when it is not appropriate. When dealing with spiritual things we need to use spiritual reasoning. Sometimes we forget the role the Holy Ghost has to play in things. It is through him that we can know the will of the Lord. That is how God communicates with us. So when we want to gain a testimony of something it makes perfect sense to go through the spiritual channel instead of the reason and logic channel. It's really not that complicated once you understand it.

Emma Snyde said...

Oh, my, oh, my! Such contention in these comments.

We really must remember that according to the most correct book on the face of the earth, even the Book of Mormon, we are told in 2 Nephi 9: 28-29, "to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God." We know that not all information is useful or will strengthen our testimonies. We must be in tune with the Holy Spirit in order to selectively choose how we use our God given gift of reason and what information we use for the basis of that reason. Only information coming from sources that we are sure will lift our spirits to God and strengthen our testimonies should be permitted to dwell in our thoughts.

I would like to also mention a quote from our dear Prophet, President Benson who said, "Students at universities are sometimes so filled with the doctrines of the world they begin to question the doctrines of the [Lord's] gospel."

This is exactly why we won't pay for our children's higher education at any institution unless it is at the Lord's University, BYU. Thank Heavenly Father, and thank you, UK and Canada for funding that great university with your tithing! As long as BYU continues to operate and increase the testimonies of our young adults, I do not worry about the future generation learning to reason with uninspired information.

Joseph K. Packer said...

FreeThinker and K0mmilla. Why would you use Logic and Reason when you have the direct revelations that The living prophet of God Thomas S Monson receives daily from the living God is beyond me. We use Logic and reason and Scientific Method only when it agrees with the sacred words of our prophet and apostles, if they don't agree with our prophet and apostles then they come from satan. I boldly testify unto you that Thomas S. Monson speaks to God like a man talks to another. And the proof of that is the many revelations that he has received and continues to receive that have helped our country and the world to be a better place to live.
In the Name of our Savior even the Saint of Israel, Jesus Christ, Amen.

Joseph K. Packer said...

K9mmilla says:"Like I tell my kids, grow up and act your age"
That is exactly what I say unto you "grow up and Act your age" I challenge you under the penetrating eye of our creator to read the Book of Mormon (the most correct book in the world) and to ask of God the eternal father with sincerity of heart if what you are reading is true, and if you ask with faith God will let you know by the power of the holy ghost. You will feel a burning sensation in your heart. Do that and you will come back and share your testimony unto us, for it came to pass that I am sleepy and will write no more. Adieu....I say these things in the name of Joseph Smith and Helen Mar Kimball, Amen

Henrietta Frisck said...

good day to you mr STAKE PRESIDENT..-.,

i have spent many years reading and praying hoping that the LORD would send me a sign it was not three weeks ago that HE sent me a message, i was sleeping and in my dream i saw a leaf floating on the surface of a calmclear lake it was a glorius image scene of heavenly beauty!! my spirit did rejoice and then i awoke to the sound of a bird calling loud it is so clear that the ALMIGHTY FATHER orckistrated that so i may know HIS wishes i stood in blissful state and walked to the window...

opening it wide I saw the bird fly away showing me the path to the LORD IN HEAVEN in heaven i stepped out onto the ledge naked as EVE in in EDEN garden and flew to HIM! I FLEW!!!! PRAISE HIM!!!!

THE LORD sent me back to earth as it was not my time and he has given me no control or sensasions of my body below the neck IT IS HIS WILL!!!! HALLILUYAH!!!!!

GOD BLESS!!!!

Henrietta Frisck

*This message was written using head-tracking software LOMAK (TM)*

sordatos said...

LOGIC AND REASON ARE SATAN´S TOOL!!!

Sometimes in our lives, specially in young people, there is this "voice" of reason, that try to makes us stop an analyse our actions and beliefs, and start putting doubts in our hearts, is absolutely vital that we crush this voice with rituals, negation and repetitions of the Word, until every bit or critical thinking and independent though get annihilated and we become an irrational mass.

That´s how the Chur.. I mean God intended.

It worked so well on Howard Hughes that he gave us all his money

Bishop Bishop said...

I cannot fault the logic of your argument in that a true testimony is based on a lack of logic and truth. I know for my testimony was gained by that way lusting after missionary sisters. I am grateful for the 25 years of fruitful membership it has given me. I know that logic dictates that JS was a conman but my testimony says otherwise. Praise the Lord

Joseph K. Packer said...

My testimony of the church was also gained through a dream/revelation from the Lord.I had a dream in which I was taken to a high mountain by a man dressed in white robe. And he told me: Behold! and I beheld and saw a big and spacious building and men and women and children entered into the building to worship the beast, and the building had the mark "Conference Center" in its entrance. And the man in the white robe said : Behold! and I beheld and saw a big building where people enter to buy luxury items. And this building was called Creek City Mall. And the True Church of Christ had nothing to do with this. and it came to pass that after this manner the great whore of the word became known unto all the people. I say these things in the name of Joseph Smith and Helen Mar Kimball Amen.

Anonymous said...

A stake presidents may be called by God to serve, but by no means are his words divine scripture nor is he a divine seer and revelator. Keep this in mind when reading or listening to the words of a stake president. He's not perfect and his opinion is also far from divinity. Great men, amazing leaders, but just men at that.

Stephanie said...

if everyone followed suit with your hatred of "logic and reasoning", women still wouldn't be able to vote, everyone would still be at risk for polio, and everyone would think the Sun revolved around the Earth. good job Sparkey.

Anonymous said...

Is this blog for reals? This seems like a thinly veiled attempt at humor by some ex-mormons. Crazy!