The missionaries have been teaching an evolutionary biologist named Stephen. Stephen is a committed Christian and is enthralled by the Book of Mormon. He has prayed and feels good about its authenticity.
He asked the missionaries what the Church’s position is on evolution. He wants to know if he can accept the science as it relates to evolution and still be a member of the church.
Being a man of science and of faith I invited him and the missionaries to my home. We had a wonderful discussion and he asked me what the position of the church is on the matter concerning him.
Firstly I confirmed to him that being a believer in evolution certainly shouldn’t deter him from being baptized and didn’t make him ineligible in any way. I explained that we are more concerned with how people live and what they do than the specifics of what they believe. Having said that though, I also wanted to share with him our teachings on the matter to ensure he didn’t join the church under any false pretenses. He had a question and I had an obligation to answer as honest and forthrightly as I could.
I thought about sharing with him the part in the book Doctrines of Salvation by our beloved past prophet Joseph Fielding Smith where he said that if evolution was true then the church isn’t, but then I thought better of it. While there has been much debate on the subject within the church over the years I thought it best to only use quotes that can be found on our current lds.org website (I do hope none are offended at this approach).
I explained to Stephen and the two Elders that evolution is a theory and is based on an understanding that life and death have been around for millions of years upon the earth. Stephen agreed with this. I then had us turn to the Bible dictionary which says*:
"Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Ne. 2: 22; Moses 6: 48).”
Stephen agreed with me that the fall of Adam took place some 6,000 years ago, but let us know that he didn’t really take it as a literal event but looks at it more symbolically. I then had us read together 2 Nephi 2:22 from which we learn that if Adam had not transgressed he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created (in a perfect state such that they could not die) must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
As mentioned Stephen has a more scientific view and seemed quite comfortable with the fact that his views are often at odds with the more literal interpretation of ancient scriptures such as the Bible and Book of Mormon. This is how I hoped he would react as I have no issues with people joining the church that see things like this in a different light.
We then moved on to the specific issue of evolution. As already mentioned I didn’t want him to join the church without a full understanding of today’s teachings on the topic so we read from the current Old Testament institute manual as follows**:
“It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth, and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declares that Adam was ‘the first man of all men’"
“Of course, I think those people who hold to the view that man has come up through all these ages from the scum of the sea through billions of years do not believe in Adam. Honestly I do not know how they can, and I am going to show you that they do not. There are some who attempt to do it but they are inconsistent—absolutely inconsistent, because that doctrine is so incompatible, so utterly out of harmony, with the revelations of the Lord that a man just cannot believe in both.
“. . . I say most emphatically, you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man, and at the same time accept the plan of salvation as set forth by the Lord our God. You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so. . . . “
This seemed to concern Stephen. He had read online that some of our leaders had debated evolution but didn’t realize there were current teachings against it. I told him not to worry and assured him that with time he will come to see that the leaders of the church are prophets, seers and revelators and can be trusted in their interpretation of scientific data.
I mentioned that the quotes from our Old Testament manual are completely in line with what we see in the Ensign magazine. Do you remember the special Ensign from March 2008 all about Jesus with that nice cover on it? I have a copy at home and always keep several in my office at the stake centre. I asked one of the Elders to read the following from Boyd K. Packers address found therein***:
“We are taught in Genesis, in Moses, in Abraham, in the Book of Mormon, and in the endowment that man’s mortal body was made in the image of God in a separate creation. Had the Creation come in a different way, there could have been no Fall.
How well I know that among learned men are those who look down at animals and stones to find the origin of man. They do not look inside themselves to find the spirit there. They train themselves to measure things by time, by thousands and by millions, and say these animals called men all came by chance. And this they are free to do, for agency is theirs.
But agency is ours as well. We look up, and in the universe we see the handiwork of God and measure things by epochs, by aeons, by dispensations, by eternities. The many things we do not know, we take on faith.
This we know! This simple truth! Had there been no Creation and no Fall, there should have been no need for any Atonement, neither a Redeemer to mediate for us. Then Christ need not have been."
Stephen was quite taken back by this statement and asked if he could re-read the part about learned men looking down at animals and stones to find the origin of man. He considered this a personal attack on his profession and was quite surprised that something like this would be found in our writings and on our official website. He enquired as to who the author of this article Boyd K. Packer was. I told him that Boyd K. Packer was the President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles and will become the next prophet and Church President if he outlives 83 year old Thomas S. Monson.
Stephen then sincerely thanked us all for our time and said he had another appointment to be at so we promptly closed with a prayer.
I noticed he left his Book of Mormon on my front doorstep on the way out. He must have been tying a shoe lace and accidentally left it there in his haste. I asked the missionaries to return it to him at their earliest opportunity so he can continue to ponder the message it contains. I am confident that Stephen will be baptized very soon and look forward to having his perspective amongst the latter-day saints in my stake.
Lovingly shared by Stake President Paternoster
108 comments:
Once again, thank you for your inspired counsel and links to lds.org.
I searched lds.org the other day and indeed came across a Stake President Paternoster. Is he your brother or cousin since his first given name is Anthony? Just curious.
One more thing, by the way you spell some words and from the lds.org articles, are you from the UK?
We are an American military family, so if we ever get orders to the UK I will be sure to let you know so that I can make sure I move into your Stake boundaries.
Dear President Paternoster, as always, you lay out the truthfulness of the gospel with great detail and then bring it all back to the one and only way to measure the validity of the Book of Mormon through the good feelings that come with faithful obedience.
I'm sure if this Stephen man who has already shown a weak penchant for the teachings of man would examine the feelings in his heart that he must have sensed when he met the missionaries, that he would put off the teachings of man and let the spirit guide him.
Your wonderful essay does bring up an interesting challenge I've been pondering lately. I know it's silly to ask but I'm sure you can help me work through these issues in a way that reflects what the CURRENT leadershp would have me understand.
I have read various articles in beautifully illustrated magazines like Smithsonian and National Geographic that fail to mention even once that the meso-american people have Hebrew blood. In fact, these clearly incomplete articles continue to indicate that the people of Central and South America, as well as the Lamanites of North America all seem to have Asiatic bloodlines.
Why don't the scientists mention the Hebrew influences and bloodlines? They also fail to mention horses, metallurgy, certain grains and crops, and many other things that are right there in the Book of Mormon numerous times. How much more clear and obvious can it be?
These things puzzle me and make me question the thousands of educated scientists, archaeologists, DNA and medical specialists, and other well educated people who spend decades studying and using scientific methods to determine the true origins of our many different human tribes.
It seems clear to me that the Book of Mormon is true, not just because I feel it in my heart but because it tells of people of dark skin and since I live in the Southwest I see firsthand many Lamanites who have the curse and were less righteous in the pre-existence. This and the sensation of correct and truthful teachings from my leaders who tell me that they are correct and true confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church is true. The Book of Mormon is true. Otherwise there would be evidence to the contrary.
President, you're blog was interesting and got me thinking about other conflicts between the world we live in and the Church's teachings. As a woman I admit that I have always struggled with having a different set of rules to live by then men. Maybe you could do a blog about why we women cannot hold the priesthood and why the culture of the Church discourages women from being career oriented and encourages them to be wives and mothers first.
Also, considering the topic of Adam and Eve, maybe you could comment on how Eve being the one who directly led to the down fall of man has led to centuries of women blaming and the way this has "trickled down" through the ages and impacts us to this day. Examples: discrimination in the workplace (e.g. being paid less; the glass ceiling), and also I believe contributing to the role that LDS women are required to fulfill. I find myself in a crisis of faith because honestly I feel just as capable as you are dear sir.
President Paternoster, that was straight up awful. You sound like a fundamentalist Christian and not a Mormon.
There are plenty of Mormons who believe in evolution, including Henry Eyring, the father of President Henry B. Eyring. BYU's science departments are all evolutionists.
Here is the blog of David Bailey, an LDS scientist at Berkeley Labs.
http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/blog/
Brother or Sister 2.5, the word of the Lord is clear, Adam was the first man and as the Lord's Church has so clearly put it again and again, evolution is a falsehood, it is not the way the Lord created our world and all that dwells upon it.
We were created in the image of our Father in Heaven, not some cosmic primate who propagates other primates to fill the cosmos. Our Father is HUMAN!! The scriptures are clear Brother/Sister 2.5, the fall took place, Adam and Eve were REAL people, and thanks to the wonders of modern revelation, we know where they were located at Adam-Ondi-Ahmen, even the environs of Jackson County Missouri!
You and your so called Mormon friends are treading very close to the edge of Apostasy! Please don't fall for the trap set forth by the wisdom of men. Follow the prophet(s) they know the way!
Your brother in the Gospel,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
Brother 2.5, I must echo Brother Samuelson's sound counsel regarding your most liberal views.
President Paternoster has presented the most current teachings of the One True Church as put forth by the Brethren, the mouthpieces of the Lord. The Lord has spoken, and the debate is over.
May I remind you of a story told by Prophet, Seer, and Revelator Spencer W. Kimball:
"There is the man who, to satisfy his own egotism, took a stand against the Authorities of the Church. He followed the usual pattern, not apostasy at first, only superiority of knowledge and mild criticism. He loved the brethren, he said, but they failed to see and interpret as he would like. He would still love the Church, he maintained, but his criticism grew and developed into ever widening circles. He was right, he assured himself; he could not yield in good conscience; he had his pride." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1955, pp. 94–95.)
I pray that you will not fall into this kind of apostasy and that you will soften your heart, beware of pride, and abandon the deadly heresy of belief in the religion of evolution.
Brother Cannon and Brother Samuelson,
You guys hold apostate, fundamentalist views. You guys don't belong in the LDS Church. BYU teaches evolution exclusively. Like Darwin said, there is grandeur in this view of life. Evolution reveals the majesty or our creator.
Adam and Eve represent mankind's disobedience and estrangement from God, Israel's expulsion from the promised land, and Mormons' expulsion from Jackson County.
Go join the Southern Baptist Convention or becoming Godless communists.
I just don't understand. I show an investigator current teachings from lds.org and people think I did wrong?
Did I write those words?
Of course BYU teaches evolution - if we sent out graduates without teaching them this they wouldn't get jobs. Does BYU set the teachings of the church? No. I get current teachings from our manuals and ensigns and yet this offends you. Quite frankly I am dissapointed.
2.5 ....That is exactly why I would never send my children to BYU--especially when they teach such Godless doctrine contrary to the church prophets. That and they no longer sell McNaughton's paintings in the Wilkinson center showing that all democrats hate god and the constitution.
Sometimes the missionaries hold back on what they tell investigators so not to overwhelm them and to be sure they are ready to accept certain parts of the gospel. This gospel is a line upon line gospel. The first steps are to feel that the BofM is true, that JS was a prophet and that this is God's true church. Our many practices and teachings will come over time as the new member learns and grows in faith. Just one example of this line upon line teaching is the temple endowment. It is wise and definitely inspired of God that members wait a year to receive their endowment where they will be more ready to learn about that sacred ordinance.
However, I do respect how you were open and honest with "Stephen". Like you said "He had a question and [you] had an obligation to answer as honest and forthrightly as [you] could." You could have just simply told him the church had no official position on evolution (which "officially" they do not) and left Stephen to join the church, read these statements in the manuel or ensigns and have him feel like you had deceived him. Yet, this approach was not with out consequences. It seems it did have an effect on him and may have wavered his decision to join the church. It may take him some time to digest this new information and hopefully he will come to the conclusion it is OK to for members to differ in their opinions as long as their diligence in obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel and strict adherence to the standards is what really counts. This decision really is easier to make for someone who is already a member of the church but who knows, the confirmation Stephen received of the BofM may, and hopefully will, prevail.
Faithful church members should not be alarmed at what 2.5 wrote above. In 2002 I interviewed for a faculty position at BYU. This of course required an interview with a General Authority in the Church office building. While being interviewed and receiving counsel from Elder Monte J. Brough, he told me how happy he was I was interviewing for a position not in the Biology department. He went on to tell me that one of the questions he asks these candidates is whether they believe and teach evolution as a fact or a theory. He told me I would be surprised at the number of candidates he has to give a negative recommendation to because of their belief that evolution is "true."
Rest assured that the true belief of every member of the BYU biology department regarding evolution were checked by an authorized representative of the Church and very likely confirmed by the power of revelation. While these professors may publicly research and write as though evolution is true, they have aligned their beliefs with the truth of the Gospel.
My own stake president says evolution is revealed doctrine. Plain and simple.
Zippy is lying. President Henry B. Eyring told me himself evolution is revealed Gospel fact.
Biol 100 at BYU is official Chruch biology.
You people are trying to hijack the Church and turn it into the Southern Baptist Convention. In the name of President Eyring's BS in physics, I rebuke you!
Brother 2.5, I must tenderly yet firmly rebuke you for your positions regarding evolution. We know that Adam and Eve were real people, the Atonement of our Savior, even Jesus Christ would have been for naught had there not been a literal Adam and Eve, partaking of the fruit in the Garden of Eden. Even the Holy Temple confirms this most important doctrine!
The Book of Mormon is quite clear on this subject, Adam and Eve were real people and the fall literally took place, there is no room for metaphor or ambiguity, it literally happened. The fall not only refers to man's fallen state, but the earth itself "fell" from its creation location near Kolob, and traveled or rolled through space to its present location in the solar system and it will one day return to the presence of the Father to receive its paradisaical glory!
I often run across such members as yourself as the instructor of my Ward's Gospel Doctrine class, and I find that I must quote the very words of Brigham Young to set such errors straight. Remember, the Lord's house is a house of order, not of confusion.
His words are as follows, "When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him." I find President Young's words comforting and a bulwark against the evils of evolution! It is truly a special time to be alive when modern revelation exists on the earth today! No mere "theory" of men will ever suffice for words of the prophets, living or dead.
If the Church is true, then so are the positions put forth by the brethren regarding the creation and origins of life. I think it's time to get right with the Lord Brother 2.5. Get right with the Lord!
In watchful and loving kindness,
-R. Nephi Sameulson
President,
I, for one, am grateful for your direct and honest approach; I think that if anyone is criticizing your approach it is simply because we know that investigators should be given "milk before meat" and that "not all truth is useful."
As a missionary, I found it most effective not to teach investigators about any doctrines that might discourage them from getting baptized. If you had waited until Stephen was baptized, confirmed, endowed, married in the temple, with a calling, and a support group within his ward before telling him about the church's stance on evolution, he might have been more likely to accept the true doctrine. Even so, I know you were guided by the Spirit in this matter, as I know that you are in all things.
Thank you for your inspiring words.
As a missionary, I observed that it was most effective not to teach investigators any doctrines which might discourage them from getting baptized. For someone like Stephen, it might have been better to wait until he was baptized, confirmed, ordained, endowed, married in the temple, with a calling and a predominantly LDS peer-group, before giving him the "meat" of the doctrine. We know that "not all truth is useful," and any doctrine that would cause someone to lose their testimony falls under this category.
Nevertheless, I know in my heart that Pres. Paternoster followed the Spirit in this encounter, as he does in all things, therefore, he did the right thing in this case.
To R. Nephi Samuelson:
Hellfire and damnation await you for your stupidity in not seeing that the temple ceremony is trying to tell you that Adam AND Eve represent US (don't you get the hint, retard?).
Hellfire and damnation await you for misquoting Brigham Young and your unwarranted, fundamentalist interpretation of the Book of Mormon.
Hellfire and damnation await you for your mingling JOD quotes with doctrine.
In the name of President Eyring's BS in Physics, and of Elder Nelson's PhD/MD, and of Elder Scott's BS in Nuclear Engineering and work on a top-secret government job on nuclear energy, I rebuke you for your apostate fundamentalism!
I feel strongly to testify that 2.5, whoever they are, are one of those "New Order Mormons". The type that looks at the gospel as a buffet where they can pick and choose what doctrines they are going to believe and overlook. I testify that the Celestial Kingdom will only be occupied by those stalwart Mormons that are willing to accept all of the gospel, not just what is politically comfortable. Men like President Paternoster will be in the celestial kingdom and individuals like 2.5 will unfortunately spend eternity in a lower kingdom.
I am saddened by your reply Brother 2.5. I find it troubling how you can dismiss the words of the prophets and the instructions of the temple so easily. From your soon to be apostate position, you neglect to realize that Adam will return to Adam-Ondi-Ahmen and meet with the righteous brethren of the priesthood and return the keys back to our Savior, even Jesus Christ. If evolution is real and Adam is a mere metaphor or symbol, just who will be there to meet the Savior? We mock what we don't understand Brother. Please get right with the Lord on this.
Do your views also extend to Noah and his miraculous work done prior to the global flood? Just as Adam & Eve existed, so did Noah as modern revelation confirms his existence and the realities of the global flood.
Next you'll be telling us that Jesus Christ himself is only a metaphor without any historical documentation to support his existence. Where does it end Brother 2.5? Where does it end?
I will be praying for you Brother 2.5. Apostasy starts very slowly, as we learn from the Book of Mormon, that the Devil leadeth them carefully down to hell! The Church needs strong testimonies and support of the divine work in which we are engaged. May yours be strengthened as you hearken unto the counsel of the prophets.
Your brother in the RESTORED Gospel,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
I am not a "new order Mormon," whatever that means, my views are completely orthodox. I believe in virgin birth, the resurrection, and the reality of the Lehite civilization.
The glory of God is intelligence, Brother Samuelson, and I am afraid that your stupidity will lead you down the road away from God, into apostasy.
You've missed multiple hints in the temple ceremony that say the Adam and Eve represent mankind (here's another hint: Adam in Hebrew looks a lot like the word for "humanity"). Shame on you!
Like I said before, Adam and Eve represent Israel's expulsion from the promised land and the Saints' expulsion from Adam-ondi-Ahman, the paradisaical state to which Jesus will return. You must study this analogy out in your mind.
In the name of President Eyring's BS in Physics, and of Elder Nelson's PhD/MD, and of Elder Scott's BS in Nuclear Engineering and work on a top-secret government job on nuclear energy, I exhort you not to dumb yourself out of the Church!
Quick reminder...this guy is NOT a real stake president (in case anyone actually believes he is). It's pretty safe to assume he's (if he is a male) not even an active member of the Church. I'd guess angry former member or angry soon-to-be former member.
Stop taking the bait.
In case anyone was still unaware...this person is NOT a stake president. It's likely that this person is not even a member of the Church. My guess would be he (or she) is a disaffected former member (or soon-to-be former member).
Stop taking the bait.
Brother Samuelson,
I feel prompted that we should unite as a home teaching companionship and visit our dear brother 2.5.
It is clear by his misguided comments that he has lost the Spirit, and has been beguiled by the philosophies of men.
Only the True hand of Fellowship will be sufficient to soften his heart and bring him back in harmony with the True Teachings of the Brethren.
Showing preference to university courses over the latest statements from the Lord's anointed surely shows reliance upon the arm of flesh. Let us join together in the prayer of faith that we may reclaim our beloved brother 2.5, and rescue him in the manner that our dear Prophet has admonished us to.
President Paternoster, will you approve of our righteous desires as we set forth to minister unto the lost sheep of this fold?
2.5. Perhaps you have not noticed, the church has its own evolution!
We here believe the teachings of the prophets as they speak updated, current words of God. We know that some of the older words of the prophets are still in place until the current prophets follow God & update them - our modern prophets don't have tied arms (or mouths-they speak FOR God)!
In fact, we just covered this principle in the oral sex (to do or not to do) blog & I think it was stated that until the prophets revoke that commandment (no oral sex) like they did polygamy or blacks & the priesthood, it stands!
So as you can see, we can't even relate to your fundamentalist insults! Perhaps you are just confused as to how modern day prophesy really works? Perhaps you believe that another evolution of time (specific church period) stands as the only true church? Which true church to you adhere to 2.5? Or maybe as was stated, you simply pick & choose your own doctrines & discard everything else.
- Sister Sweetie
Dear Brother 2.5,
Again I ask you, if Adam is a metaphor or symbol who will be at the great gathering of priesthood brethren at Adam-Ondi-Ahmen to present the keys back to the Savior?
Who exactly did the prophet of the restoration, even Joseph Smith say he saw? President John Taylor stated that Brother Joseph had been visited by many, including Adam himself! "The Principles which he had, placed him in communication with the Lord, and not only with the Lord, but with the ancient apostles and prophets; such men, for instance, as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Adam, Seth, Enoch, and . . . the apostles that lived on this continent as well s those who lived on the Asiatic continent. He seemed to be as familiar with these people as we are with one another."
Were these men "symbols" as well? Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah, ADAM and other REAL and historical figures from the Gospel past! You are making a mockery of revealed truth!! Apostasy may be closer than you think Brother 2.5. You may twist the Gospel all you like to fit your narrow and frankly apostate views, but the revelations on this matter are clear.
President Paternoster has listed other sources from which you can draw to gain understanding and acceptance on this important issue.
Do you not understand that without a literal Adam, with a literal fall that there would be no need for a Savior and Atonement? What would be the purpose for such a sacrifice when there would be no need for such in the first place? I admonish you to repent of this stifneckedness and follow the counsel of the prophets. There are no contradictions in the Gospel! All truth shall be circumscribed into one great whole, excluding the heresy of evolution!
May you find peace in HIM, the giver of all truth and light. The teachings of man mingled with scripture will never take you very far Brother 2.5!
Your Brother in the RESTORED Gospel,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
p.s. While you are correct to point out that the temple teaches in sacred not secret symbolism, we are not to discount the literal reality of Adam and Eve and their fall in the Garden of Eden. Please consider your positions carefully!
I must confess I am deeply troubled by some of the comments on this most favored of stake president's blogs regarding the satanic theory of "evolution."
Surely the end must be near when even the "very elect" of Heavenly Father's children are misled into believing such things.
I testify unto you that the Lord's University has no choice but to teach the Luciferian doctrine of evolution. The lord saw fit in his infinite wisdom to consecrate this promised land, yea, the very land of our First Father Adam, as a secular nation which allowed the now exalted Joseph Smith to restore the gospel and priesthood of the most high.
As such, we have been instructed by Joseph Smith, now a god in his own right, to obey the law of the land. The unfaithful scientists of the world, relying on the arm of flesh, carbon dating, and other satanic tricks, are silently conspiring to derail the work of the lord by convincing children that there is no need for a god.
The lord's university, in order to maintain it's charter, must acquiesce to teach the "theory" of evolution. Be not confused, brethren and sisters. This is not selling out as some might think. Why, where would the church be today if we did not obey the law of the land?
We would have lost our churches and temples had we not stopped practicing the eternal law of polygamy. We would have lost our tax exempt status had we not extended the priesthood to the unrighteous seed of cain.
When faced with such attacks by the adversary, we must fight fire with fire. Now bow your heads and say "yes."
Brother Cannon,
If I could get the location of Brother 2.5, and providing he lives near by, I would be more than happy to visit with this good brother and share our testimonies with him. However, We shall remain unmoved from our positions of truth and righteousness. Following the prophets truly does bring safety and peace as we hearken unto their wise counsel.
Bless you for your suggestion. The Lord needs the help of willing men to wear the workers seal, come help the good work move along, put your shoulder to the wheel!
Bless you Brother Cannon for your righteousness!
-R. Nephi Samuelson
Brother Samuelson,
If Adam represents humanity, who do you think will be there to hand back the keys. C'mon brother, this isn't rocket science.
When thou readest the scriptures, be not as the pharisees, for they think science contradict God's word.
When thou readest the scriptures, be not as the heathen, for they think science contradict God's word.
Do not read the Bible like a science book--whosoever needs to be commanded in this with an official statement, the same is slothful (and retarded).
Feast upon the words of Stephen J. Gould's non-overlapping magesteria: religion governs the spiritual and moral world, science the natural world.
Evolution is the only principle taught at BYU, it is the only game in town. If you want intelligent design, go enroll at Bob Jones U. or Liberty. Evolution IS the Biology of the Church regarding the interrelatedness of species. What I say is doctrine.
Hearken unto my voice, or you shall become as a godless Communist, and your life will become a pointless absurdity, and you will join other bitter, clinically-depressed ex-Mormons online in the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Amen.
Brother/Sister 2.5 and others,
I am a little nervous to get into deep doctrine, but feel it must be done. Before I do so however, I once again bear my special witness that Pres. Paternoster is true.
That said, if you've been going to church long enough you will know that we believe this earth was formed out of matter which was already created!! God did not create the matter itself, but rather ORGANIZED IT! It is very likely that this matter had been used to create previous planets by other Heavenly Fathers, with remnants of those Fathers' creations still existing.
So the dinosaurs, neanderthals, etc etc, are very likely NOT things which were found many years ago on our own earth, but were instead parts of other worlds. As the majority of scientists do not have the light of the restored gospel to guide them, it is easy to see how they would get confused and assume these creatures were part of our world, representing an "evolutionary heritage".
Brother 2.5,
I am afraid you are like unto those who let go of the Rod of Iron and were lost in the mists of darkness. I am astounded that I am having such an unbelieving and openly blasphemous conversation with a Latter-day Saint. The judgments of the Lord truly will begin upon His own house and the evolution believing goats will be separated from the sheep.
Please repent and follow the prophets. In this there is safety, in this there is peace.
-R. Nephi Samuelson
"Hearken unto my voice, or you shall become as a godless Communist, and your life will become a pointless absurdity, and you will join other bitter, clinically-depressed ex-Mormons online in the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. "
Oh 2.5! My heart weeps for you. Your soul has clearly begun it's travel down the long and angry road to apostasy. You have rejected the teachings of many modern day prophets and scripture and now you seem to relish in the idea of quoting yourself as scripture.
I believe that we all, as a people, should fast for the soul of 2.5. He is hurting brothers and sisters, he feels he knows more than the leaders that have been chosen by God.
Oh, my heart aches for the future you have in store with such a hard heart 2.5!
Remember the counsel for those in the BOM that "think they are wise" and "hearkin not"...
Repent 2.5, Repent!
Brother Mobegone, President Paternoster, please lend credence and your righteous wisdom to the ideas of other worlds where these creatures and archaeological findings have come from.
I want so much to believe that the world is as the Holy Bible defines at around 6,000 years old. Without that I'm left adrift to the teachings of man, with all their seductive logic and reason and evidence.
Please give me some solace in scripture and the teachings of the prophets that confirm that the Bible is true, the Book of Mormon based on those same truths. I ache for these truths.
Brother Samuelson,
I'm afraid our home teaching visit's urgency has reached new heights!
Sister Cannon left a casserole in the oven and instructed me to take it out when the timer rings, and shred the carrots for the Jell-O in the meantime. She is currently busy taking photos of the children for her Mommy blog, so I am left to complete these domestic chores (although I quite enjoy them, given as we are truly equally yoked.)
Once I'm done, I'll hop in my minivan and drive across the suburbs to pick you up. Brother 2.5 desperately needs to hear our testimonies of the Truths that President Paternoster has shared.
I'll cover the small-talk, and will you please share a brief message from the Ensign? Then we will confound him with our burning testimonies, which will come from the mouths of two witnesses, and thus be irrefutable.
I look forward to joining you in the ministry, brother Samuelson (doubtless related to the righteous BYU President, and named after Nephi of Old.)
Off to the Rescue!
Thank you for all comments. And now for a little rant.
You Utah people seem to think that what goes on in your State and in your university is all so important. I was under the impression (falsely, it seems) that this was a world wide church with more members outside of America than in it. This leads me to some very serious questions:
1. Do the current curriculum and teachings of BYU supersede the current teachings on lds.org? (I want this question answered)
2. If the answer is yes how do members worldwide find out about this? For example let's just say that I live in Macroom, County Cork, Ireland and that I attend the Cork unit every Sunday at 11am in their lovely little chapel. If this were the case and I had a question on evolution how would I find out through APPROVED SOURCES ONLY the teaching of the church in this matter?
Should I think to myself “well I really ought to check out what BYU professors are teaching” OR should I search current manuals/Ensigns etc at lds.org?
Please tell me. I sit at your feet ready to learn.
2.5 said >>>In the name of President Eyring's BS in Physics, and of Elder Nelson's PhD/MD, and of Elder Scott's BS in Nuclear Engineering and work on a top-secret government job on nuclear energy, I exhort you not to dumb yourself out of the Church!<<<
Oh dear... I immediately thought "In the name of President Eyring's BullSh*t in Physics, and of Elder Nelson's Ph*ckingDumb/MindlessDrivel, and of Elder Scott's BullSh*t in Nuclear Engineering and work on a top-secret government job on nuclear energy...<<<
LOLOLOLOL!!! ...2.5... are those letters after those men's names supposed to IMPRESS me? I'm sorry, but when a young, uneducated boy in upstate New York can kneel to pray and be visited by AN ANGEL OF GOD and then bring forth unto the world a book as perfect as the Book of Mormon, well, I know full well where I need to lay my faith and confidence. I will not let you tempt me to look neither to right nor left 2.5! I will not allow you to trifle with my sacred things.
Insana D,
Rather than point out the "proofs" which you long for, I will give you something so much better.
I bear my testimony to you that our world was made out of previous worlds, and that much of what we think is the product of "evolution" is actually based on creatures from previous worlds. I have prayed on this and received the burning in my bosom, and you can lean on my testimony until you have one of your own.
As a second counselor in an Elder's quorum presidency, I hold the keys to teach you a precious truth taught by our beloved Pres. Packer. A testimony is gained in the bearing of it!!!! So I counsel you to go out and bear testimony of this truth to all your family members, friends, co-workers, etc. Soon you will find that your bosom burns with the truth and you will be amazed that you could ever have questioned it.
Thank you for your comments Brother Mobegone!
The prophet of the restoration, even Joseph Smith taught that "the Earth was created like a cake, from ingredients of different ages. Just like a cake was made from wheat that is a year old, eggs from a few days and milk fresh this morning from the cow, so too, the Earth is made from parts of different ages."
He also stated, "This earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broke up and remodelled and made into the one on which we live. The elements are eternal. That which has a begining will surely have an end."
This sort of creation process must have been going on for eternity. Just think Brothers and Sisters what other worlds which were not exalted, but were instead destroyed, make up our own little planet? I am a bit confused on this point as according to Heber C. Kimball who stated, "“Where did the earth come from? From its parent earths.” But this is another topic, and something which will require further light and knowledge before we can understand what he meant.
I think the position of the Church has been quite clear over the years regarding creation and how the earth came to be. However, as an interesting aside, apparently our planet is missing a segment due to the City of Enoch being exalted. In President Wilford Woodruff's journal he stated, "Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled & was translated it was whare the gulf of Mexico now is. It left that gulf a body of water."
Just as every hair will be restored to our body, so shall this missing part be restored to the earth for its resurrection.
We truly have been blessed with so much more knowledge than those of the world. These glorious mysteries are ours through the blessings of the Gospel!
-R. Nephi Samuelson
p.s. Brother 2.5, if Adam was not real, why would President Brigham Young say this, "“He [Adam] is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.”
Please repent Brother 2.5. Adam is REAL!
Dear Brother Mobegone, Thankyou so much for lending me your strength and testimony. I can imagine leaning on your strength, riding it through the buffeting winds of change.
President Paternoster and all you other righteous male leaders, thankyou for your wise counsel. It is through your priesthood power that I know the words of God come forth for us lowly womenfolk. I have been told many times to let the Priesthood holders do the heavy lifting in matters of complex "meat" based doctrine and yet I persist in digging. It's part of my many weaknesses.
Thanks again for offering scripture and the words of the true prophets, both past and present to this complex dilemma. It's comforting to know that these learned men had direct insight into the plan of our Lord and Savior and Father in Heaven.
I am an active LDS. I get that this blog is satire but it doesn't make me angry. These thoughts, opinions and teachings (that have been addressed on this blog) do exist in our church, even among some of our leaders. I am ashamed to see other seemingly active LDS coming on here and being so negative. Don't you get it, you are the joke! Why are you allowing yourself to make personal attacks and say such angry things? If you want to defend the church then address the issues that are being raised and the quotes that are being given. Or try to find the positive points in them as I do. I just don't think that contention is the way to go.
I know that some people are OK with accepting Mormonism and Evolution at the same time. I'm not too sure how they do that, I myself struggle with it, especially with comments that Boyd K Paker has said. But I'm OK with that, I'm OK that some people believe in it and some people don't. I'm OK that some people take things more literally and some people don't. It has been my experience though, that those who do not take things literally tend not to be given leadership callings, but that may just be in the places that I've lived or have had associations with.
2.5, I am guessing that you too are using satire to try to make your point that evolution can be accepted by members of the LDS church, at least I'm hoping that's the case. Some of your statements have been pretty shocking and sometimes completely untrue. Evolution is not reveled doctrine and President Eyring would never have said it is. Why you would make something like that up even as satire is beyond me. Also why would you say that any Mormon who does not believe in evolution does not belong in the church? Do you honestly think Boyd K Paker does not belong in the church along with probably millions of others?
Instead of attacking the character of people why don't you use this blog as an opportunity to learn and to grow in the gospel, the potential is there if you but chose to take it.
As always president, I am inspired by you.
President,
I was quite taken aback by your reaction to this man not taking the scriptures as literal. You say you "have no issues with people joining the church that see things like this in a different light". While I can agree with this, in part, taking the scripture as non-literal should be grounds for rejection of baptism and even excommunication.
President, I would like to leave you my testimony that I know the scriptures are the true words of God. I know that Jonah spent three days inside of a large fish, I know that God can speak through an ass (a donkey not an anus), I know that God commanded she bears to maul children for making fun of a balding prophet and I know, beyond a shadow that Noah took two of every animal into a boat as the entire earth was baptized in water.
The scriptures are true and literal and you, Brother President, should not allow a man to come into your sacred home and tell you otherwise.
Bravo 2.5! Let's see if you can stay in character as long as Paternoster!
(BTW, I like the Pres character a lot better, but your character could be the one I love to hate!)
HIlarious. This blog by homophobic LDS scum, is now linked on reddit.com
Hilarious. This idiotic blog by homophobic scum SP is now linked to reddit/com
Temple name Abraham, yours?
Did evil fake pres leave or better yet, repent? I really wish you would reset the blogs to auto-post, for some of "can't sleepers".
You missed a great quote from our world-renowned surgeon/apostle during an interview:
Reply | Reply to all | Forward | Print | Delete | Show original
Conservative denominations tend to have more trouble with Darwinian evolution. Does the church have an official position on this topic?
Elder Nelson: ... to think that man evolved from one species to another is, to me, incomprehensible.
Why is that?
Elder Nelson: Man has always been man. Dogs have always been dogs. Monkeys have always been monkeys. It's just the way genetics works.
2007 http://pewforum.org/PublicationPage.aspx?id=3838
"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. " - 2 Nephi 9:28-29
Pres. Paternoster has clearly taught the counsels of God, as found on lds.org from the mouths of his prophets.
In BYU's defense, it is possible to skip most of the THEORY of evolution. Many of the programs, including Elementary Education, Nursing, and English Literature, only require the most basic of Biology gen ed requirements. You can get through BIO 100 with only a little time spent on the THEORY of evolution. Truly faithful students can skip BIO 100 altogether and take a physics class instead, where you learn about the much more divinely approved theory of gravity. Just some helpful tips!
President Paternoster,
you have run afoul of the teachings of the Brethren. Expect to appear before the area authorities soon. The Lord hath spoken, and evolution by natural selection is the only acceptable explanation for the origin of life taught at Church institutions of higher learning. Do not add or take away from the neo-Darwinian synthesis, or God will take your name out of the Book of Life.
To Brother Samuelson: You need to think a little harder, or the winds of Satan will drive you to and forth like a dumb ass (Mosiah 12), and you will leave the Church. Irenaeus said that Jesus is the second Adam. Perhaps there will be a third Adam. Many alternative explanations are available; be thou not stupid. Think.
To Insana Dee: You will be cursed with a sore cursing for your stupidity. You will spend the rest of your days crying about changes to the introductory page of the Book of Mormon, which isn't even part of the translated canon.
To TuNeCede: You reap what you sow. In Dante's Inferno, adulterers suffered an eternity of swinging back and forth, for in their life they wanted no more than to swing back and forth in their passions.
For your fundamentalism, you will become a fundamentalist Christian anti-Mormon, and you will spend days on end making a fuss about whether the atonement happened on the cross or Gethsemane.
To Catherine Pillinger: I did not fully grasp your random post. Were you offering me a blowjob? Send me your picture and I'll think about it.
In the name of President Eyring's BS in physics, and of Elder Nelon's PhD/MD, and of Elder Scott's BS in nuclear engineering, I rebuke you all for you violation of D&C 93. Amen.
Alright 2.5 you got me!! You're a good satirist. Well played, though I'm no fan of satire.
Feel free to stick around and rebuke as you see fit.
It would be nice though to have a real LDS believer who also accepts evolution answer my questions as to how members world wide should find out the church teachings on evolution (cuz we really don't take into account what gets taught at BYU).
President Paternoster,
You have neglected my counsel. Heed the words of Stephen J. Gould: Religion governs the moral and spiritual world, science the natural world. Go to church to learn about your relationship to God, and go to BYU/BYUI/BYUH/SVU to learn about the natural world.
Hahahaha!!! Awesome!
I said I would not let you trifle with MY sacred things. You can trifle with your own sacred things yourself.
...but that's not allowed either, is it? ;-)
...then why do our prohets, seers and revelators speak of evolution then? Have they no right?
There was an Adam-like figure in the pre-mortal council. Biblical scholars are convinced that a council of divine beings existed in the religion of ancient Israel. Walter Bruggemann has documented that being "raised from the dust," as Adam was described in Genesis, is a Mesopotamian coronation motif.
"My god, my god, why hast thou forsaken young 2.5?"
Darwinian evolution is the THEORY of speciation, not the origin of life. We all know and can bear testimony that Heavenly Father recruited us as intelligences into his most holy of holy multi-level god marketing campaign, so we can receive the blessings attached to moving him up the celestial pyramid.
This is the origin of life, not the luciferian doctrine of evolution. Let us rejoice, brethren, that we may become gods, not through evolution, but through hard work and a little grace. Sisters, you have been blessed with the most gratifying of gifts, to be the vessels through which intelligences may be given spirit bodies. You need not look any further than your navels for the blessings of eternity.
Oh how my heart aches for young 2.5, buffeted by the winds of the adversary, decieved into accepting for doctrines the theories of evil atheists whose sole purpose in life is to drag the rest of us down with them to eternal mediocrity.
You, 2.5, may continue to believe what men say, but as for me and my house, we will believe what the prophets have to say. In the name of Jesus, even the Christ. Amen.
We should all remember what our beloved prophet, seer, and revelator, Bruce R. McKonkie, said on the subject of evolution.
"Try as you may, you cannot harmonize [the teachings of Joseph F. Smith and 2 Nephi] with evolutionary postulate that death has always existed and that the various forms of life have evolved from preceding forms over astronomically long periods of time. ... If death always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life; if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life; nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God."
So, as our beloved Bruce R. said, if evolution is true, there is no God.
The theory of evolution is truly a diabolical doctrine. Thank you President for setting this man straight.
President,
I will come to your aid in defending the true teachings of the Gospel in regards to evolution.
One thing that has resonated with me are the inspired words of our beloved Boyd K Packer who delivered a beautiful speech on homosexuality that explains same sex attraction better than any worldly scientist ever could.
I believe these words ring true for evolution as well:
"Why would God do that?"
Amen
Awwwww 2.5 -- with you I'm thinking it would be more like a straw in my Coke at McD's. But you can keep dreaming it if makes you feel better. :-D
OK this is just getting out of hand. The comments made by 2.5 are offensive and disgusting. I don't care if it is satire or not.
President you have always spoken with utmost respect to anyone who posts here and I really appreciate that. I wish that others could show that same respect too.
Since you have the ability to monitor comments I would kindly ask that you not alow any more degrading and insulting comments to be posted by this person.
Thank-you
Kolobian,
evolution and abiogenesis comprise the theory of the original of human life. Don't try to scentifically one-up me with your semantic fuss.
And I warn you all again: If you guys aren't intelligent enough to distinguish official pronouncements from isolated statements made by Church leaders, in a few years, you will all be godless Communists. Like Richard Dawkins said, you will be nothing but machines for propagating DNA. Your lives will be pointless. And you will join other hysterically-bitter ex-Mormons online in the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Good point Sister Daniels. I just deleted the more degrading comment by 2.5
Reading Brother 2.5's comments is like looking through a window into the world of the Nephites as they turned from revealed truth to the confusion of darkness wrought by the cunning plan of the adversary.
A world where prophets speak and they are ignored, rebuffed and treated as naught. Now I understand just how the Nephite civilization fell. We ignore the prophetic utterances of the Lord's servants at our peril! Truly the spirit of contention coupled with fault finding of the prophets is on display with Brother 2.5!
Prophets speak. They reveal the realities of creation including the origins of humanity. The adversary puts forth a plan of darkness & confusion. Brother 2.5 embraces the plan while ignoring and dismissing Prophetic statements and persecutes the faithful of his own religion who do not accept his "theories" yet remain true and faithful to the Gospel plan and its teachings. The Adversary wins! Well we're not going to let you win 2.5, no siree! Hold fast Brothers and Sisters, hold fast.
What a wicked and sign seeking generation indeed!
-R. Nephi Sameulson
Oh, 2.5, you remind me of myself when I was in my younger, darker, more worldly days before I served the lord of hosts on my afterlife insurance policy sales mission. How I wished that I could find a reason to pretend that evolution was true and that abiogenesis would one day be demonstrated.
Lucifer, however, is not smarter than our Heavenly Father, and god will not be mocked. I've since come to acknowledge that my inclination to study science was an outward manifestation of my inner guilt at succumbing to the evil temptations of the flesh. Evolution, as I discovered, was a cleverly disguised fig leaf to cover my own guilt.
Faith in the Lord Jesus, even the Christ, and repentance are the only science I need now.
Why, if evolution was a fact, and not a theory, then we would have to acknowledge that homosexuality is not a choice after all, and therefore not a sin. Surely you must understand that to lay with another man, as one man lays with a woman, is to mock the holy process of procreation and warrants the punishment of death, yea, even that punishment that is most capital.
No, brother 2.5, if evolution and abiogenesis are true then the church is not. You must pick a side or risk being cursed with a skin of blackness as taught by the Lord's Apostle Bruce R McKonkie.
I testify to you that there literally was a garden of Eden in Jackson County, MO. and that our father Adam's body was made from the dust of the earth and not a monkey; that his spirit, the spirit of Michael the Arcangel, the only god with which we have to do was placed inside of it; that his rib was used to make his wive Eve, the mother of all living; and all the fossils of all the species from all generations of time that have been found by so-called scientists are merely the remains of life from other worlds that testify of the eternal plan of salvation, and serve as a test of faith.
Be not deceived, brother 2.5. If death existed before the fall of Adam, then all the scriptures are wasted ink and paper, the savior is a myth, the church is a male-dominated female-suppressing revenue-generating scam, and the priesthood is a farce.
I testify to you that evolution is not true. In the name of the most holy of lords, the lord of saboath. Amen.
I didn't notice anyone answering the good Presiden's question about how he can find true answers if he lives in Ireland. The answer President is that the further you live from the crossroads of the west and the headquarters within the shadows of the everlasting hills, the less true the church and its members become. I should know because I used to live in the hot bed of Mormonism itself, ie Provo, UT. The general attitude there is that the church is REALLY only true there, so all you other posers can forget about having a lock on the church. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. In the name of Christmas eve, amen.
May I present this fine article from Christianity Today that relates to these topics:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/june/noadamevenogospel.html
Thanks Brother Sumsion, I figured this would be the case.
Thanks for the link to Christianity Today. I enjoyed reading that.
It is indeed a crushing blow to be rebuked by this person who calls him/herself 2.5. He or she said,"
To Insana Dee: You will be cursed with a sore cursing for your stupidity. You will spend the rest of your days crying about changes to the introductory page of the Book of Mormon, which isn't even part of the translated canon."
While I'm not the sharpest arrow in the wheelbarrow I do know that following the words of the leaders is the true path to righteousness. I don't need fact and evidence nor even learned men to help me know that God uses these faithful servants to help bring forth the truth and enlightenment of the Gospel.
Know ye not that God would not allow his prophets to lead us astray? I can sleep well tonight knowing that I obeyed, without thought or question and the responsibility for logic, reason, even qualified judgment falls on their heads. I am a mere woman, a handmaiden, a jewel in the crown of men and therefore I am without guile.
To some God gives separate gifts. He did not bless me with great insight or wisdom or even a keen intellect but he gave me two wonderful bosoms with which to suckle my babes, a fertile womb with which to bear numerous children, and a strong back for lifting the burdens of large buckets of food storage. I don't need to know everything as long as I am obedient.
So there 2.5. You wallow in your supreme smartness but you sir (or madame) can not count yourself in the most elect, the truly saved because you dare to question the authority of our beloved leaders.
As it says in the scriptures, "God will not be smocked".
Amen, Sister Insana D. Our kind and loving Heavenly Father may not have seen fit in his infinite wisdom to endow you with the capacity to understand the artificial knowledge other men have developed in order to turn away from the true light of the gospel, but he did bless you with the faith of Ruth.
Brother/Sister 2.5 is no different than our brothers & sisters in the premortal life who hearkened unto the words of Lucifer instead of following the light of Christ, even the savior.
I will continue to pay, pray, & obey because in this there is safety. In this there is peace.
In the name of the savior, even Jehova. Amen.
I must agree with A. Sumsion, at least in part. I would not go so far as to say the church is less "true" in Ireland than it is here in Davis county, just that you must have been less valiant in the pre-existence.
I am part of the lord's chosen generation. I know this because they told me repeatedly in YM that I was of the chosen generation. I became a part of this generation and was born in Davis County because of my valiance in the pre-existance.
I am pretty sure I smote the serpent with the sword of righteousness.
President, you may have not been a fence sitter like our African Americans brothers and sisters, but you must have been less than valiant in the fight against satan's army. You were able to avoid the curse of dark skin but were not able to obtain the blessing of being born to a family in Zion.
Brother Heber, words cannot express how grateful I am to finally get this clarification.
My only consolation is that I was born closer to Zion than my friend and fellow servant, even President Utchdorf.
Please do not thank me, thank our mouth pieces of the Lord, even our prophets and apostles.
I am a mere student at their humble feet.
All of this is certainly fascinating information my fellow brothers and sisters in Zion ( and we all are aware that Zion can be many places, even soggy wet Ireland).
Perhaps some of you more learned people who are not burdened by the twins of breast and vagina to cloud the intellect could help me to know if I too am of the truly elect. I am very white. In fact, I am almost fish belly white and in addition to large full white full bosoms I have very blonde hair. I have often wondered if these traits were part of my earthly reward for my valiance in the pre-mortal coil.
It seems that our loving Lord and Savior has often mentioned how delightsome the white people are and how they are his most chosen. In my simplicity I interpret that to mean that my own whiteness is reflective of my past righteousness. I only hope I can live up to my gifts and restore some of the purity I lost in that decade after my divorce when I sort of went wild with sins of the flesh. Those memories haunt me to this day. In fact I think I'm having one now.
If you guys want to be anti mormon thats fine, just say openly that this is satire. But now you are just being plain offensive. Pres p. you are the moderator and by allowing the post, you condone the smut that is being displayed here.
This is a fair point.
Traditionally I have never moderated the comments, but have allowed people to say whatever they want. People have called me names and sworn at me and said other offensive things but I have always allowed it.
I am considering keeping things more 'moderated' now though as faithful members shouldn't have to read some of the things that are being said.
Having said that though I do see a higher purpose in allowing comments to flow freely and it is this: Members can see for themselves right on this blog what happens to those who fall into sin and leave the church. In this way it serves as a blatant warning for all.
Insana D, it's not your fault that you spent 10 years of your mortal life experiencing the temptations of babylon. We all know that our sisters in Zion are incapable of leading lives of righteousness without a faithful priesthood holder governing over them. After a divorce you would be left in the proverbial sea of iniquity without the "rudder of the priesthood" to guide you back safely to zion. The brethren could serve as a lighthouse shining through the mist to guide you, but without a priesthood holder in the home to take the helm you wouldn't stand a chance. I'm so happy to know that our sisters in Zion who are unable to find a righteous man in this life will have the choice to marry any of the righteous brethren they choose as a plural wife. How generous of our heavenly father!
President, I pray that you limit your moderation efforts. Although many anti-mormons may post on your threads in an attempt to lead the children of zion astray, we must remember what our father Abraham taught us about the pre-mortal life. To limit others' agency is to follow the plan of Lucifer. Moderating the antis is exactly what Lucifer wants us to do.
I only pray that the kolobian starlight filtered through our own sun may illuminate the hearts and minds of all of our brethren and sisters so we can return to that great sphere together one day. In the name of the king of kings, even Yeshua. Amen.
"Members can see for themselves right on this blog what happens to those who fall into sin and leave the church. In this way it serves as a blatant warning for all."
Indeed dear President!! We have seen in Sister Insa's comments which reflect thoughts and dare I say actions which are in conflict with the proper behavior of a Latter-day Saint! We have taken sacred covenants upon ourselves not to speak in light-minded ways, and with its accompanying sin of loud laughter! A sacred covenant binds us to this dear Brothers and Sisters!
I for one will not condone such behavior. We are to be as our Savior has commanded us, as his Father before him had us thusly commanded, "Be Ye Therefore Perfect!" I see no other way, NO other way.
Yours in loving and understanding kindness,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
I have to say that Pres Paternoster and his imbecile minions are in fact quite clever and intelligent, despite the fact they come off as asses. If you could just take this creative energy that you all hold in this spoof and use it towards something that actually inspires people and adds to peoples life you guys would be awesome. You can be funny and not be vulgar. You can share opinions and not offend. But then again maybe that’s what you are after.
Seriously, how much of your life is spent cutting down others? You guys really enjoy doing this day after day? Ok, we get it....you're no longer a Mormon...or it could have been a Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist....thats not the point, the point is move on and build your life with positive things and just learn and grow. You have been doing this since January? I meant it when I said you are all clever and creative but after awhile, it doesn't seem so funny.
I must confess, the serpent beguiled me and I did type. President Paternoster, I now covenant to obey your Blog Comment Law as you obey our Father.
I can testify of the truthfulness of the words of brother Deacon Taminate.
It appears the adversary is very clever indeed. We should all fast & pray that the world deepens further into iniquity in order to speed up the 3rd coming of our Lord & Savior, yea, even Jesus the Christ, so that we no longer must give ear to the bitter words of angry apostates who left the church due to either sin or being offended.
Then we will all be quickened and then resurrected by the Lord's anointed prophet and now exalted man Joseph Smith and receive our final personal priesthood interviews. If, and only if, the newly exalted Joseph Smith finds us worthy we will inherit all that the father has. It will truly be a great day indeed.
Until that time comes, and we should do everything we can to usher it in, we are stuck sharing the telestial world with less worthy, less valiant intelligences that will one day serve us in the Father's Kingdom.
Of these truths I testify in the name of our lord, him who is mighty to save, even Jesus Christ. Amen.
Yes, i am indeed a cautionary tale but my efforts to repent and change my wicked ways should also be a lesson in forgiveness and tolerance. Even Jesus Christ himself was willing to allow wanton women of the world to touch the hem of his garments and forgive them. I only hope that with the help of righteous Priesthood men who are more in tune with God's will that I too can find forgiveness.
Deacon Taminate,
It sounds as though you are offended. Please do not allow this to destroy your testimony and make you leave the church. Follow the admonition of President Packer and forgive those who have offended you.
If you are involved in secret sins, such as masturbation, please confess to the proper Priesthood authority.
As Elder Nelson taught us in 2003, God's love is conditional, predicated on our obedience. I hope you will repent of being offended and thereby qualify to be loved by Christ.
Yours truly,
Brother Mobegone
Why do people choose the words of so called "prophets" over all the evidence that proves that evolution is true? Evolution is based on scientific evidence which can be verified; the "prophets" ask us to trust them. The choice seems clear to me.
Deacon Taminate you said "You can share opinions and not offend. But then again maybe that’s what you are after."
Do you consider the teachings of the church offensive? Even if they are in exaggerated forms most on here are just highlighting actual Mormon teachings, beliefs and assumptions. If you were part of an organization that had teachings that were offensive or what you believed to be wrong what would you do? Would you just turn your back on it or would you just shut your mouth and take it. What if you believed change could happen knowing that it had happened (over time) in the church before. Could that possibly give you hope for a better future for you and your loved ones with-in this culture of Mormonism which is so much apart of you and in which you are surrounded by? Do you think that maybe you'd be tempted to be apart of helping that change come about? Or if you had given up on this ever happening do you think maybe you'd seek out places to find stress relief, maybe even through humor?
You also asked these questions "Seriously, how much of your life is spent cutting down others? You guys really enjoy doing this day after day?"
Well maybe if someone has spent their whole life being cut down, made to feel like they will never be good enough, guilted or manipulated into things constantly then I certainly think that gives someone the right to expose who ever it is who has done this to them! If you want to see that as cutting down the church fine but in my opinion I call it survival.
AMEN Sis Daniels!!! Amen!!!
- Sister Sweetie
Sis Daniels,
Can you or anyone give me your top 5 offensive teachings that you are talking about so I can better understand. It will be easier to answer your question.
Do you really think this blog is going to change the church or members? I totally agree with you that if I felt strongly about wanting to influence others I would try too but there are better ways to do it than a satire blog who many times is just offensive sounding in a childish manner. So making effective changes? Not happening. A stress reliever for some? Yes maybe it is. But not a healthy one if people act like this for an extended time like years. I am sorry you have had such awful experiences, that isn’t what religion is supposed to do for anyone.
Why did you feel cut down and never good enough? I’m being sincere when I say this… I’m sorry that happened to you.
Deacon Taminate said "You can share opinions and not offend. But then again maybe that’s what you are after."
Brother Taminate what exactly are you finding offensive about President Paternoster's quotes? He has not shared one single quote that is not from a legitimate church source. What problem do YOU have with the words of counsel from the Prophets and leaders and approved publications of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I think the introspection needs to come from YOU yourself Brother Taminate, if you are finding direct quotes from our inspired leaders offensive.
Brother Taminate also said: Do you really think this blog is going to change the church or members?
Personally, I hope the entries and timely topics, supported by direct quotes from the church leaders and manuals, will help reinforce to other members what EXACTLY they know to be the truth of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All of President Paternoster's blog entries have certainly confirmed to me what the church is.
If you are second guessing the Lord's Annointed's words of counsel, perhaps you need to re-examine yourself sir.
I will answer your questions and I still hope others answer mine.
The parts I find offensive: In Pres. Paternosters blog about oral sex, people in there talk about masturbation and oral sex in vulgar child like ways. Its not shocking just stupid and no one will actually take you serious if that’s what you are trying to do….change minds and opinions. After questioning other LDS members this has never once been brought up by any of their bishops or stake presidents. Its nothing that was ever asked of them for a temple recommend. And before you say well don’t read it, you are seriously wanting people to read this to change thoughts and opinions correct?... so I would think a bit better censorship or Pres. should comment that those opinions are not condoned by the church, instead of thank them for them. It would help otherwise it looks like a bunch of kids running it. Some comments are excellent points by the way, but then they get cast over by the stupid ones.
The blog entry on Mother Teresa was offensive. They way the Pres. handled some of those comments that followed by actually thanking them for their thoughtful words, as if he is approving them. There was a comment after the blog on Mother Teresa that said – If Mother Teresa had only been good enough in the pre-existence to have been born in a Mormon family, she could have had a lifetime of self-fulfillment instead of hugging lepers and being depressed all her life. Now not sure where you all get this but we are taught to respect all enlightened people regardless of their religion such as Buddha and Mohammed. Talking like that is not being respectful of such an amazing person. You need to remember its not just the Presidents entry but how he conducts himself afterwards by his words in follow up comments.
There are the racial comments....find them offensive.
What about where the Pres. told a woman to get a breast reduction so the missionaries didn’t have to stare at her and be tempted…..please this is stupid. I could go on and on. Really this is official policy?
I can share more if you like? Still would like to hear real answers (not satire junk) to my questions.
"people in there talk about masturbation and oral sex in vulgar child like ways. Its not shocking just stupid"
Great point. I cringe at a lot of comments people post. When I started this blog I wanted it to be a 'free for all', say what you want - whatever is on your mind, but the American (crude) sense of humour is quite unappealing to me. So that point is well taken.
With regards to Mother Teresa do you think some members actually think that way (that she would have been better off born into an LDS home)? I bet you there are. And that's why I leave comments like that and simply thank people for their input.
I don't think I told a woman on this blog to get a breast reduction though?
Stake Pres. you are right there will always and forever be extremists in every religion or political realm that exists. Doesn’t necessarily mean it will always be an official belief held by the church or any church for that matter and in those cases it should be stated otherwise.
You are right it was not this blog but your Paternoster facebook page which also gives out advice as a stake president and posts your blog entries. People in that forum also ask your advice and opinions as a stake president and you advice them just like the blog. That is where it happened.
Oh that's right, it was on my facebook wall. Often people ask me questions in jest and so I answer likewise.
One need not always be serious!
You are SO right President! I remember one time the Area Representative where I live made a very humorous light-hearted remark about us constantly waiting for our 'Caribbean' members who had difficulty arriving on time for meetings when he said "Don't tell me what time it is! Jamaican me rush!" LOL! He was SO funny!
Deacon Taminate I agree with you that many on here are just having fun and some of that fun is a bit off color. I don't go on the president's facebook page but it sounds like it's more of a joke around place for him. The racial comments you read unfortunately are pretty much quotes from Brigham Young and are done in satire.
The post on Mother Teresa was pointing out that even though she is someone we respect we do believe that in order for her to get to the celestial kingdom she will have to accept the work that has been done for her in the temple. Many of us grew up feeling blessed that we were born into a Mormon family. The comments about righteousness in the pre-existance as well as other "fence sitting" comments I believe come from some of the early church leaders and again are done in satire. Unfortunately there are some who hold views like these. Using satire helps many deal with these issues and not feel so angry about them.
I was out today and have just now been able to answer your question. I'll put it in the next post as it is quite long.
Just incase you are curious I am currently an active LDS.
The plan of salvation – I believe this causes many to live in fear or guilt that they or their loved ones will not “make it” and that they will be separated eternally. I think this causes strain on family relations for those in or out of the church. Along with this teaching is the concept that only a “few” will even make to the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. That in itself is a very damaging teaching.
Teaching sexuality to the youth. Although some teachings I believe are good sometimes the method that these teachings are given I believe create issues with self-esteem. Here are a few examples: Young women live in fear that if they do not suppress their sexuality in all aspects of their life, thoughts, actions and clothing that they will be seen as used and dirty and unworthy of a “righteous” priesthood holder. Young men (and young women but most of the YM get asked about this) live in constant guilt over issues of masturbation.
I would say that pretty much most of the churches teachings on sexuality have damaging consequences. Their view, teachings and expectations about sexual orientation have sometimes had tragic and fatal results. The wearing of garments may interfere with the intimacy of a marriage or at least hold it back from what it could be. It's hard for a women to feel very sexy and believe me that is important and not in a dirty way. Also under this topic could be the way the church deals with sexual abuse. Protecting the church and forgiving the accuser is generally put as top priority. Many do not get the support or the help they need.
Inequality of women. It's not a secret that many young, married Mormon women use medication to deal with depression. There is reasons for that. I'm going to borrow an analogy someone told me about “As a parent I love and care for my children, and I give them opportunities to learn and serve in the family. Overall they are happy, HOWEVER no one would claim that they have an equal status in the family when it comes to power and decision making.” The place for women in the church is to be put upon a pedestal by those who have power over that pedestal.
The misrepresentation of church history by leaders in manuals, and in picture art as well as the content of actual church history. If a member never finds out the truth then I guess what they don't know won't hurt them. I'll just list a few things under this category. Polygamy and Polyandry, the ban on blacks, and the “JS story” .
14 fundamentals of following a prophet. We are taught not to question or criticize our leaders. I believe this level of control is not healthy.
The one true church teaching. I believe this fosters judgmental thinking whether one is aware of it or not. It teaches people that their spiritual experiences are valid and others are not even though there are people having the same convictions through their faith as we have in ours. To think that we have the one and only way for people to be happy and that this way is a one size fits all is just ignorant and blind to the billions of people that this would not work for.
There are many more but I will just say this last one. We see it as OK to tear down, replace, or change someone else's beliefs but if someone of our faith decides to think differently or to disagree with any parts of the gospel or teachings by general authorities is not OK. That person is discouraged from speaking to anyone about it except their local leaders. They are treated as if something is wrong with them. If they remain active they either hide their true feelings living in fear that they will lose the respect of others or they are open about it and end up not being offered certain callings and may even be denied a temple recommend (an other very damaging teaching) and suffer the un-Christ like consequences that that would entail.
Thank you so much for answering and writing a very well thought out explanation. I actually agree with you on almost everything. I am LDS too.
I know all about the ban on blacks and do not agree with it. I feel it was of the times and nothing of God. I do not believe in the curse of cain, never have and never will. Its an excuse to be racist. Many, if not all religions used this excuse not just Mormons. The talk on dark skin is talking about a covering of darkness that can surround a person, any person or any color. Its just like when you see someone and they have a light about them, its not referring to skin color but more of a spirituality or essence.
The Polygamy issue was to me another stupid mistake of man and again not of God. The story for that one is long and it has repeated itself also in many other parts of world history. Doesn’t make it right but just lets you know that human make some huge mistakes. I do not believe everything that a prophet says is of God and we need to use our personal judgments and guidance.
I also believe its wrong to make the youth feel ashamed or unworthy if they are being human. I also do not like the arrogance that many LDS hold that they are the only true church and others will have a slim chance in getting to the celestial kingdom. I actually feel that is false and many many more will be there then not….and that includes everyone no matter what religion. I actually have a lot of thoughts on this and its way too much for this space.
Basically I agree with you on many of the things you stated , even ones I didn’t get time or space to mention. I feel the church needs to address the past histories that are not favorable and stop hiding them. It actually hurts the church and the members.
We can only be who we are and stand up for what we believe is true and just. What we believe after prayerful consideration to be true. But I still stand behind my thoughts that this type of release is harmful for everyone. It wont create the changes that need to be made or addressed. It wont spread goodness but more of the same contention and animosity and don’t we have enough of that in the world to deal with as it is? It adds fuel to the fire. It sparks anger in LDS and non LDS…you can see that reading the blog. So it creates more pain for everyone. I just don’t get it.
Yes there are some pretty stupid humans both LDS and non LDS. All of the world histories and religions get to share that in common. Catholics, Baptists and almost every other religion have forums upset about their churches lies or cover ups and doctrine. But there are some amazing, spiritual, wonderful, kind, loving people in each of those faiths too and cutting down the whole lot is damaging to those who don’t deserve it. There has to be a better way. That was just my point….keep talking and share thoughts and opinions but enough with the junk. Actually talk. Just like this.
Brother Deacon Taminate,
The spirit compels me to call you to repentence before you lose yourself in the mists of the world and find yourself in the great and spacious building of arrogance and pride.
The lord would never allow his anointed prophets to lead his chosen people astray. The Lord in his infinite wisdom used Cain and his murderous sins to create a lineage whereby unfaithful, less valiant brothers and sisters in the war in heaven would have mortal tabernacles to inhabit without the blessings of the priesthood. The Lord didn't change his mind in 1978, he simply ran out of less valiant spirits to punish. Surely this is a sign that the end is near.
Likewise, the Lord has not renounced the New & Everlasting Covenant of Plural Marriage. 4 of the current 12 apostles are sealed to two women each. Are we to believe that these brethren are mocking the Lord God Almighty?
And rest assured, Brother Deacon Taminate, that the brethren are inspired to instruct the youth to keep themselves clean and to abstain from masturbation. Homosexuality is a choice. No one is born that way. Most homosexual behavior begins as masturbation and later deepens into sodomy and the lusting after the flesh of members of the same sex. How wise the brethren are for teaching us to not touch ourselves in inappropriate ways.
I testify to you that the brethren are, were, and always will be inspired of the Lord and will be as a light on the hill, showing us the way to become perfect, yea, as perfect as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph Smith. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Brother Kolobian,
I commend you for your faithful reply! Tis an honor to lurk on these pages with the likes of you.
May God continue to bless your righteous efforts!
Your Brother in the Gospel,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
As for Brother Deacon, I too feel compelled by the spirit to testify unto you that the Lord will never allow the Prophets to lead us astray, it it just not in the program!
Please take a firm hold upon the Iron Rod, for it twill safely guide you through. Follow the prophets and the wonderful admonitions given you by Brother Kolobian. Many are called, but few are chosen.
In loving and non-judgmental kindness,
-R. Nephi Samuelson
Brother Samuelson,
The spirit whispered to me that we were both mighty warriors who fought together during the War in Heaven. We were valiant and successful in reducing the amount of Lucifer's followers from 37% to 33%.
Although we were probably both equally successful in bringing souls to Christ in this lifetime, our missionary efforts are but a shadow when compared to the good works we performed in the premortal existence.
I thank our Heavenly Father that President Paternoster has given us the opportunity to reunite once again.
Keep your shoulder to the wheel, brother Samuelson. Push along...
In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
When I read this blog I get the same feeling I get when I read the book of mormon.
Brother Mr. Smith,
I testify that the feelings you're experiencing come from the Holy Ghost, confirming that the words you are reading are true.
I bear my testimony that President Paternoster is truly inspired of the Lord and holds the keys of the kingdom for his stake and stewardship, and will not lead us astray. In the name of Jesus Christ, yea, even Jehova. Amen.
President Paternoster - You did some great research. However, your quotes seem dated, since they were before the damnable DNA evidence began supporting all of the fossil evidence. Stephen may have needed more reassurance from a current apostle. He surely would have been impressed by this interview of our beloved heart surgeon, Elder Nelson:
Interviewer: Conservative denominations tend to have more trouble with Darwinian evolution. Does the church have an official position on this topic?
Elder Nelson: ... to think that man evolved from one species to another is, to me, incomprehensible.
Interviewer: Why is that?
Elder Nelson: Man has always been man. Dogs have always been dogs. Monkeys have always been monkeys. It's just the way genetics works.
2007 http://pewforum.org/PublicationPage.aspx?id=3838
Once Stephen hears what a logical and scientific mind Elder Nelson has, he will surely believe that Elder Nelson knows what he is talking about.
Thank you anonymous. Here we see an apostle and another general authority making statements in 2007that are completely in line with our manuals. It is our consistency in our teachings (never wavering from the truth) that sets us apart from all other religions who are tossed about by every wind of doctrine never knowing the truth, for they know not where to find it.
It is sad to see some of our church leaders still resisting the truth of evolution even when the scriptures support it. The book of Abraham states that God said let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. Later it states, let the earth bring forth the living creature. These verses to me clearly state that each animal did not arise from a special act of creation, but by a process in which the elements of the earth brought forth living things, which is consistent with evolution. Death before the fall is also another misinterpreted scripture that is primarily a result of our past culture and tradition, which sadly takes along time to weed out. The only scripture that gives even mentions that there was no death before the fall is found in 2 nephi 2:22. But a close reading of the scripture and other verses following it can lead us to other interpretations. Unlucky for us, Bruce R. Mcconkie was very vocal about his specific interpretation, one that completely contradicts modern science. But since he is the one responsible for writing most of the Bible dictionary, that is the view most commonly accepted in the church. If the water and earth were bringing forth animals and plants well before Adam arrives on the scene, then there must have been some reproducing and death happening. For those who persist in thinking that Adam and Eve were immortal creatures that were brought into the Garden of Eden, I would love to see scriptures that support this view and not quotes from Apostles and Prophets who have clearly missed the mark on this issue. Oh my goodness... Did I just utter those words that Prophets and Apostles can be wrong on issues. Absolutely!!! Truth is truth is truth! It doesn't matter where you find it. The funny thing is that death before the fall completely goes against what many leaders have preached from the pulpit, yet there is no scriptural evidence to back it up. No wonder why James E. Talmage and B.H. Roberts got into such a big fight with Joseph S. Smith and company for their outrageous comments concerning evolution when there was so much evidence out there to support evolution and absolutely no evidence to support no death before the fall except for tradition. Now to offer an interpretation on Adam and Eve. It's not new and has been taught by several Mormon scientists. Adam and Eve were created as mortal beings and were placed into the Garden of Eden. Scripture tells us that Adam and Eve were commanded to eat the fruit of the tree of life and not to eat of the fruit of good and evil. Why would God command Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of life, if the real choice came down to partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. After taking of the fruit of g&e, God had the tree of life guarded in case Adam & Eve returned and tried to partake of it and live forever in their sins. So it seems that the fruit of the tree of life was keeping them immortal while they were in the Garden of Eden. Why would they have take something to keep them immortal if they were already immortal beings? To me the scriptures seem to imply that Adam and Eve were mortal creatures that were placed in the Garden of Eden and in order to be immortal, they had to partake of the fruit of the tree of life. It makes so much more sense to think that when they were kicked out, they were not alone in the universe. They were however the first people of our race to have direct communication with God and to know of his plan, and were responsible for teaching the plan to the rest of mankind.
I am a returned missionary a geology graduate and have held many leadership positions in the church I am a firm believer in organic evolution based on the geological evidence we have today. For every quote condemning evolution there are many supporting it. Let me say this the geological record is clear. Death has existed for millions of years through the 11 geological periods and there are clear natural selective processes at work. Visiting Darwins house holding skulls of homoerectus and neanderthal man and human skulls is a an interesting comparative exercise but not a doctrinal one. You see it is the love of Jesus Christ against which our faith should rest. "Few American theologies are more complex than that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but its flagship Brigham Young University teaches off-the-shelf, industry-standard evolution. That has been the case since 1931, when the church officially said: "Leave biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research." ... What the church requires is only belief "that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race," says Gordon Hinckley, the church's living prophet. Scientists can speculate on the rest, he says, recalling his own study of anthropology and geology: "Studied all about it. Didn't worry me then. Doesn't worry me now." [Larry A. Witham, Where Darwin Meets the Bible, Oxford University Press, 2002, pg. 176-177]/Among the popular errors of modern times, an opinion prevails that miracles are events which transpire contrary to the laws of nature, that they are effects without a cause. If such is the fact, then, there never has been a miracle, and there never will be one. The laws of nature are the laws of truth. Truth is unchangeable, and independent in its own sphere. A law of nature never has been broken. And it is an absolute impossibility that such law ever should be broken. [Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 1891, pg. 102].
This blog is offensive! You should be ashamed of yourself "president". You are teaching people to ignore reason and logic in order to cling to a cult (Yes, the LDS church is a cult). I can't believe how brainwashed your readers are!
I am an evolutionary biologist and a Mormon. It's good to hear that there may be another joining the ranks.
There seems to be a common misconception that evolution is somehow evil and contradictory to our faith. This is false, and contradicts the church's official position on the matter. For a more in depth study of the church's past declarations on the matter, see this article entitled "The Mormon Myth of Evil Evolution" http://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdf. Evolution is not evil, it does not challenge our faith, and in fact may or may not eventually find a permanent place in our theology. As it stands the Church is officially neutral.
While we can find quotes/opinions seemingly anti-evolution in nature from leaders like President Packer today, or past Apostles like Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith, we likewise can find quotes/opinions seemingly pro-evolution from leaders like President Eyring today, or past Apostles like James E. Talmage and John A. Widtsoe. Since the church's position is officially neutral, if we are to point out opinions from leaders on one side, it is only fair if we point out opinions from the other so we do not to err by projecting or forcing our non-doctrinal unrevealed beliefs on others.
A side note, I initially fell on this page and read it through quickly. I thought the author was just a little ignorant, but re-reading it a little more has made me believe that the ignorance is too blatant to be real. This is probably some sort of parody site that I really don't want to spend much longer figuring out or dealing with. I just want to point out though, that just because imperfect leaders make seemingly ignorant mistakes at times, this doesn't make the church or doctrine somehow false, rather it just shows that God can use people who act imperfectly to move forward his work as a whole. I really don't know this site's intention, but IF it is meant to be antagonistic, it would be silly to mock imperfections, feigning superiority, when all humanity is undoubtedly imperfect; it would be hypocrisy.
Wow - much of what is said both in the body of this blog and in the comments indicate that we humans are still far from evolved. Apes struggling to understand their apeness. It is astounding to what lengths seemingly intelligent people will go in order to hang on to an idea. Once you drop it, everything becomes so obvious, but while clinging to it you are blind. If ever there were a time for a leader and prophet of a religion to speak out - this would be it. As an LDS person it should bother that the "prophets" have been so silent so long, or that when they do speak they refer to old information from less enlightened times.
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